DBWI No Second Komnenian Restoration

[Basileus_Komnenos]

As we all know the Eastern Roman Empire was shattered in the 13th century by the 4th Crusade where the Latins took Constantinople. However the Empire of Trebizond emerged as a savior to the Roman state and managed to restore the empire proper thanks to the work of Emperor Alexios VI Komnenos and his brother the Sebastokrator David Komnenos. The brothers were aided by the Georgians and they were able to establish their control over the Northern coast of Anatolia. The other states of Nicea, Epirus, and Thessalonika all emerged as rival claimants to the Roman Throne, yet Alexios VI acted very much like his illustrious ancestor through shrewd use of diplomacy and warfare to secure his realm while getting his rivals and enemies to war against each other. He notoriously allied with the Sultanate of Rum against the Niceans. Then he conquered the rump Nicean state and attacked Sultanate of Rum. He allied with Epirus and the Bulgarians against the Latins to retake Constantinople and later warred with them to retake Roman territories. Alexios's political and military acumen served him well when the Mongols invaded. He managed to pay tribute to them while arranging for them to raze Anatolia. He also provided intel to them much like the Venetians did and established a highly profitable trading relations with them.

This laid the ground work for Emperor Ioannes III Komenos to launch various wars of reconquest against the weakened and depopulated Turkish ruled Anatolia. This allowed for a re-hellenization to occur and today most of central Anatolia speaks a Turkish dialect of Greek. This change is comparable to the Reconquista in Iberia where the Andalusians rapidly assimilated into Spanish society. A long string of successful rulers allowed for the Romans to rebuild themselves out of the ashes.

But what if this didn't happen? What if the Niceans were ascendant or managed to win the battle of the meander? If not the Komnenoi who would take the mantle to restore the Roman Empire? Would the Eastern Roman Empire even be rebuilt or would it be destined to be partitioned into various successor states? Would the Roman vengeance against the Venetians occur in the 15th century where the Emperor Konstantinos XI marched on Venice and brutally sacked it stunning the Catholic world and Western Europe? Would the Turks fleeing the Romans setup their own state in Mesopotamia or would they end up conquering Constantinople under the Sultanate of Rum? Would something like the Komnenian Renaissance occur at all?

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

Personally I don’t think the Turks would ever be able to leave the confines of central Anatolia. Not unless whatever successor state triumphed instead of the Komnenids was internally unstable or if the turks had a dynasty of talented leaders that capitalized on that instability. But both of the scenarios seem pretty unrealistic if you ask me, I think the coming of the mongols doomed the Turks. So long as one of the successor states takes over most of the traditional ERE territory I think they’ll do alright, just not as successful as the second Komnenid dynasty.

 

[thekingsguard]

I have to imagine one of the various Byzantine successor states would have claimed the mantle - but whether they could be as capable as the Komnenids of Trebizond? The loss of Constantinople may have given the Rhomanians the shock they needed to stop trading land for time, but the leadership and capabilities of those first few Komnenid emperors proved critical to restablising the Empire.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Personally I don’t think the Turks would ever be able to leave the confines of central Anatolia. Not unless whatever successor state triumphed instead of the Komnenids was internally unstable or if the turks had a dynasty of talented leaders that capitalized on that instability. But both of the scenarios seem pretty unrealistic if you ask me, I think the coming of the mongols doomed the Turks. So long as one of the successor states takes over most of the traditional ERE territory I think they’ll do alright, just not as successful as the second Komnenid dynasty.

OTL, the Osman family gave a lot of generals to the Empire. they actually had a belyik themselves before the Sultanate of Rum conquered them. after the fall of rum, they defected to Byzantium and converted to christianity. They could've given the byzantines a challenge I'm sure.

But the final death of the empire would totally change the age of exploration. the Byzantines were able to reconquer most of eastern Italy and Sicily, especially after the Venetian Reckoning, and the stronghold over the Mediterranean proved too much, and Western Europe was driven to going around africa and eventually discovering the new world. The French probably wouldn't be the ones to find Provencia* and especially not maisonazteque*. The Turkish states were generally pretty pro-free trade and wouldn't want to piss off European merchants, so there wouldn't be that catalyst.

----
ooc: the southern United States otl, and Mexico

 

[StrikeEcho]

But even then, they lost the mainland Italian territories a few years after the discovery of the new world. Only holding onto Sicily and parts of Calabria.

 

[Some Bloke]

I'm not sure anyone other than the Komnenoi had the credibility to claim rulership of the whole empire, so I'd say that the ERE fragments with the remnants being conquered one by one.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

OTL, the Osman family gave a lot of generals to the Empire. they actually had a belyik themselves before the Sultanate of Rum conquered them. after the fall of rum, they defected to Byzantium and converted to christianity. They could've given the byzantines a challenge I'm sure.

OOC: would the House of Osmangolu (Ottomans) even arise here? They came to prominence in the 1300's well over a century after the fall of Constantinople and the proclamation of the Empire of Trebizond and the other Roman splinter states.

But the final death of the empire would totally change the age of exploration.

What about of surviving Latin Empire? Would its proximity to Western Europe mean that it survives unlike the Crusader states? What about the Bulgarians or Serbians? Would they be able to conquer Constantinople and the Balkans thus re-creating the Eastern Empire. Would the successor states of Nicea and Trebizond acknowledge them though? What about Iberia? They were pretty successful during the Reconquista against the Almoravids. Would Iberia unite against the French who occupied Navarre and the Almohads? Maybe a united Iberia would revive the title used by Alfonso X of Imperator Totius Hispaniae (Emperor of all of Hispania) as a counterweight to the Holy Roman Empire and the French. Perhaps they are the ones leading the age of exploration.

The Turkish states were generally pretty pro-free trade and wouldn't want to piss off European merchants, so there wouldn't be that catalyst.

Oh most definitely. The Turkish Sultanate of Bagdhad that emerged from Turks fleeing the Mongols and Romans conquered Mesopotamia and ruled nominally as vassals of the Caliph. They grew very wealthy due to their position as the middleman between Western and Eastern trade. They were so important that the Romans resolved to keep them as a favorable trading partner within their orbit to prevent a resurgent Islamic Persia from retaking it.

I have to imagine one of the various Byzantine successor states would have claimed the mantle - but whether they could be as capable as the Komnenids of Trebizond?

What about the Laskarids? They initially enjoyed some popularity among the Anatolian peasantry until they lost the battle of the meander. Konstantinos Laskaris was pretty competent against the Turks until his he died after he was thrown from his horse. The Trebizondian state was very strong as it controlled most of the trade routes in the East and had a friendly ally in the form of Georgia helping them. Though if the Niceans are successful I can easily see them having trouble due their priorities being split between Europe and Asia. The other latin and Roman splinter states could ally with the Bulgarians or Serbians to prevent a reconquest. The Turks could use the opportunity raid/invade Roman lands while their troops are in Asia.

But even then, they lost the mainland Italian territories a few years after the discovery of the new world. Only holding onto Sicily and parts of Calabria.

Ah you're referring to the Great Latin Rebellion during the Roman civil war of the 16th century. The Romans were still able to retake their Lands in Italy after they got their act together. After the other states won independence they began to fight among each other like they did after the Lombard League defeated the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick Barbarosa. This weakened them and allowed the Romans to march in without much opposition due to many wanting the violence to end. The Italian Wars were a victory after all after the French and Germans were both defeated in their attempts to take over Italy for the Pope and themselves. Because they had conflicting interests, their alliance fell apart allowing for the Romans to take advantage. In the case of the French, the looming threat of the English seeking to retake Normandy and Aquitaine forced them to divert their forces away from Italy. In Germany, the political anarchy after the Hohenstaufens were deposed caused much fragmentation that prevented effective coordination that emperors like Frederick Barbarossa had enjoyed. Like with the Lombard League, the Romans funded the enemies of the Emperor who revolted with Roman aid.

I think they’ll do alright, just not as successful as the second Komnenid dynasty.

There's also the problem of dynastic legitimacy as the Konenoi are one of the oldest noble Houses in Roman history. The other dynasties would be newer and more open to be deposed. After the Crisis of the 16th century the succession was stabilized with agnatic-cognatic primogeniture being instituted by the Emperor. The only reason why the civil war occurred was due to Manuel IV having a twin son and daughter. Two rival factions emerged pressing the other's claim to the throne. Generally the aristocracy of the frontier and provinces supported Theodosius IV while Theodora was supported by the Western and Italian provinces. One of the main reasons for the Italian revolt was that Theodora and her husband were captured and brutally eliminated by a vengeful Theodosius IV. Theodosius only turned his attention west after dealing with a Turkic and Arab invasion of Egypt and Syria.

 

[M79]

Well I doubt the Middle East or Balkans would be cited as examples of peaceful nations getting along in harmony. Maybe Westernization would mean something other than polities shattering into fragments like a glass table on rock.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Well I doubt the Middle East or Balkans would be cited as examples of peaceful nations getting along in harmony. Maybe Westernization would mean something other than polities shattering into fragments like a glass table on rock.

Where are you from? The west repeatedly came out on top over the Byzantines even after the 2nd restoration. The only place i can think of that works for that definition of westernization is like, poland because the catholic germans and the orthodox rus and Byzantines tore it apart religiously

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

The west repeatedly came out on top over the Byzantines even after the 2nd restoration.

This was only after the Romans started making moves against the Venetians and the other Crusader states like Cyprus and the Kingdom of Jerusalem. While these were major setbacks for the Romans, they adapted and focused on the East and retaking Anatolia and Thrace, their traditional heartland. With the Mongols shattering the Hungarians, the Balkans were essentially in a power vacuum that Serbia and Bulgaria tried to exploit. The Mongols ravaging the Turkish Beyliks was what also allowed the Romans to retake Anatolia over time. The depopulation from the Mongol conquests allowed for the Romans to expand into Central Anatolia while many Turks fled to Mesopotamia to escape the Romans. The zealous Emperors of the 14th century parallel that of the Iberian Kings during the reconquista in that regard. While the Mongols established the largest contiguous Empire, it soon fragment and collapsed after a century. This power vaccum saw many Turks employed as mercenaries who eventually overthrew the old elite and created their own sultanate.

 

[AltoRegnant]

This was only after the Romans started making moves against the Venetians and the other Crusader states like Cyprus and the Kingdom of Jerusalem. While these were major setbacks for the Romans, they adapted and focused on the East and retaking Anatolia and Thrace, their traditional heartland. With the Mongols shattering the Hungarians, the Balkans were essentially in a power vacuum that Serbia and Bulgaria tried to exploit. The Mongols ravaging the Turkish Beyliks was what also allowed the Romans to retake Anatolia over time. The depopulation from the Mongol conquests allowed for the Romans to expand into Central Anatolia while many Turks fled to Mesopotamia to escape the Mongols. While the Mongols established the largest contiguous Empire, it soon fragment and collapsed after a century. This power vaccum saw many Turks employed as mercenaries who eventually overthrew the old elite and created their own sultanate.

No, not in the ME, i meant when the Romans tried to expand past greece and anatolia. Eastern italy, France could accept it because it put pressure on the austrians. But north africa, despite it's islamic history, was too close and Spain actually offered Morocco protection. France straight up told the Basilius that if they stepped foot north of caparthia in a non-defensive war, and the Hapsburgs would receive Paris's best. And while the Romans were generally very lucky, they were less so against Spain all the way across the med and funded by new world riches, or France's massive armies that were as professional as the old legion

 

[M79]

Where are you from? The west repeatedly came out on top over the Byzantines even after the 2nd restoration. The only place i can think of that works for that definition of westernization is like, poland because the catholic germans and the orthodox rus and Byzantines tore it apart religiously

No pun intended.

 

[StrikeEcho]

I guess, without the Roman stopping Timur, the 'second coming of Genghis' Persia wouldn't have suffered a two decade-long civil war that practically allow the Romans to have an mostly undisturbed mesopotamian border for nearly a century. Allowing for the focus in Europe.

 

[Basileus_Komnenos]

I guess, without the Roman stopping Timur, the 'second coming of Genghis' Persia wouldn't have suffered a two decade-long civil war that practically allow the Romans to have an mostly undisturbed mesopotamian border for nearly a century. Allowing for the focus in Europe.

This wasn't really a Roman border though. It was more of a lose hegemony over the various Mesopotamian client states that acknowledged Roman suzerainty in order to be protected from the Timurids to the East. The Romans lost control of Mesopotamia only after the Latin counterattack where they withdrew the Eastern garrisons and troops to fight off an attack from Naples and Venice looking to cut down Rhomania to size.

 

[krieger]

I think that this will be going to have broader impact on the history of the world than just changing fates of Balkans and Middle East. Remember than renewed Byzantine Empire was mortal enemy for Hungary and it contributed to weakening the country and it's ultimate demise. It allied against Hungarians with Premysl II, who with aid of Byzantines manager to humiliate Hungarian-Habsburg forces in the battle of Durnkrut. Different outcome of Durnkrut means that Premysl II Ottokar isn't going to overthrow Habsburgs and become Emperor in his own right, adding Austria, Styria and Carinthia to the lands of Bohemian crown. Meissen, a new acquistion of Bohemians also isn't going to stay under Bohemian rule when Bohemians lost to the Habsburgs. It also means that Andrew the Exile is going to succeed to crown of Hungary 9(IOTL rumours about his parentage were used against him and Bohemians and Byzantines divided Hungary between themselves). Premysl also reassured his sovereignity as a Emperor over several other monarchs - for example, he forced Polish dukes to swore fealty to his protege and puppet, Henry IV of Silesia (who became first king of united Poland), who in turn swore fealty to the Emperor. He also forced Danes to accept Imperial sovereignity over them.

 

[AltoRegnant]

He also forced Danes to accept Imperial sovereignity over them.

Which led to France, Sweden, and Muscovy allying with the Byzantines temporarily to dismember that resurgent empire, seeing it as a threat. Soon after, King Valdemar The Great of Sweden was able to conquer Norway and create the Scandinavian Kingdom, with it's capital in northern Jutland to be able to easily enforce order on all the kingdoms.

 

[krieger]

Which led to France, Sweden, and Muscovy allying with the Byzantines temporarily to dismember that resurgent empire, seeing it as a threat. Soon after, King Valdemar The Great of Sweden was able to conquer Norway and create the Scandinavian Kingdom, with it's capital in northern Jutland to be able to easily enforce order on all the kingdoms.

Well, this war didn't particularilly well for Muscovy. Henry V of Poland in coalition with Teutonic Order was able to stop them and he even acquired a lot of additional land in Ruthenia, which enabled Poland to stand up and free itself from Bohemian shackles. Poland, Scandinavia and France were new rising powers of new Europe.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Well, this war didn't particularilly well for Muscovy. Henry V of Poland in coalition with Teutonic Order was able to stop them and he even acquired a lot of additional land in Ruthenia, which enabled Poland to stand up and free itself from Bohemian shackles. Poland, Scandinavia and France were new rising powers of new Europe.

I mean, France was an old power, though it did help centralize them and by extension england. You want to talk new powers? The italian revolt that came about after the War of Empires was the death blow for the HRE, since the kingdom of Lombardy separated, leaving the Holy Roman Empire without its romanness, thus the pope never crowned a new emperor. Of course this gave cause for Saxony to rebuild Germany over the next three hundred years. But either way, with the Byzantines driven out of northern italy, Lombardy was easily the biggest winner of the war.