DBWI: No Potsdam Coup in 1933

[Patton]

In early 1933, President Hindenburg had arranged for a coalition government between the National Socialists (commonly know as the Nazis for short), and the Conservatives to take power. However, on the night of January 29, 1933, General Von Schleicher, the former Chancellor, and General Hammerstein, Commander in chief of the Reichswehr, used the Potsdam garrison to capture and execute the leaders of the National Socialist Party including Adolf Hitler (who was supposed to be appointed Chancellor the next day), Herman Goering and Joseph Goebbels. They also moved to secure Hindenburg and the presidential palace. Unfortunately , Hindenburg died of a heart attack once he received news of the coup. With the president and the leaders of the largest party in the Reichstag dead, Germany was thrown into chaos. Von Schleicher declared himself president with the backing of the army, and appointed Franz Von Papen as Chancellor. The S.A. (the National Socialist Militia) led by Ernst Rohm and the surviving National Socialists now led by Rudolf Hess, rejected the Von Schleicher government and thus began the German Civil War (1933-1934). The poorly trained and ill-disciplined SA were easily defeated, and as a result the Nazis were disbanded, and Germany became a military dictatorship.

What if the coup fails or never takes place? Could the Nazi/Conservative coalition hold on to power for long and what types of policies would it pursue? Without Von Schleicher's power grab could the Weimar Republic had lasted longer? How would the Second Great War (World War II) be different?

 

[West]

I read that mad mans book.

As bad as the coup leaders was Adolf would have been far worse.

 

[Avrorrange]

The Nazis were complete lunatics.I wouldn't be surprised if they really tried to march all the way to Moscow instead of having limited war goals such as the reconquest of Pomeralia,Memel,Alsace Lorraine,Eupen-Malmedy and Posen,and turning the rest of Poland,Czechoslovakia,and the Baltic states into a German sphere of influence.Without the intervention of the USSR,the allies were doomed.Without the USSR coming to the aid of the allies,the war wouldn't have ended within a year.


On the other hand,without a party hostile to the Kaiser in charge,which the NAZI party most certainly was,the Kaiserreich would never have been restored.

OOC:The British found it more reasonable to negotiate with the Germans because the territorial aim was more limited and they found the German leadership more reasonable and trustworthy given they didn't break as many promises as OTL.

 

[Fsci123]

Yeah who knows what type of horrors the Nazis would've put Germany through before it finally fell apart. The civil war was brutal enough.

 

[The Uchronian]

In early 1933, President Hindenburg had arranged for a coalition government between the National Socialists (commonly know as the Nazis for short), and the Conservatives to take power. However, on the night of January 29, 1933, General Von Schleicher, the former Chancellor, and General Hammerstein, Commander in chief of the Reichswehr, used the Potsdam garrison to capture and execute the leaders of the National Socialist Party including Adolf Hitler (who was supposed to be appointed Chancellor the next day), Herman Goering and Joseph Goebbels. They also moved to secure Hindenburg and the presidential palace. Unfortunately , Hindenburg died of a heart attack once he received news of the coup. With the president and the leaders of the largest party in the Reichstag dead, Germany was thrown into chaos. Von Schleicher declared himself president with the backing of the army, and appointed Franz Von Papen as Chancellor. The S.A. (the National Socialist Militia) led by Ernst Rohm and the surviving National Socialists now led by Rudolf Hess, rejected the Von Schleicher government and thus began the German Civil War (1933-1934). The poorly trained and ill-disciplined SA were easily defeated, and as a result the Nazis were disbanded, and Germany became a military dictatorship.

What if the coup fails or never takes place? Could the Nazi/Conservative coalition hold on to power for long and what types of policies would it pursue? Without Von Schleicher's power grab could the Weimar Republic had lasted longer? How would the Second Great War (World War II) be different?

To be honest, the Germans already were fairly reactionary by the end of the '30s, and their mass deportations and imprisonments of Jewish people, Romani, and other "undesirables"(mainly due to the pernicious influence of that vicious bastard Joseph Goebbels, who retained his own influence after he ditched the Nazis for the militarists), not to mention the mass executions of Socialists and other "enemies of the Fatherland" IOTL, was bad enough as is.

With that said, though, perhaps Mr. Turtledove's alternate history trilogy, the "Decisive Darkness" series, tells us what a Hitlerite Germany might have been like.....and it would have been utterly horrifying, and that's putting it lightly......

OOC: Apologies to The Red-I borrowed the title from his "Decisive Darkness: What if Japan hadn't surrendered in 1945?" TL.

I read that mad mans book.

As bad as the coup leaders was Adolf would have been far worse.

Yeah who knows what type of horrors the Nazis would've put Germany through before it finally fell apart. The civil war was brutal enough.

IC: Have you read "Decisive Darkness"? Utterly scary shit.

The Nazis were complete lunatics.I wouldn't be surprised if they really tried to march all the way to Moscow instead of having limited war goals such as the reconquest of Pomeralia,Memel,Alsace Lorraine,Eupen-Malmedy and Posen,and turning the rest of Poland,Czechoslovakia,and the Baltic states into a German sphere of influence.Without the intervention of the USSR,the allies were doomed.Without the USSR coming to the aid of the allies,the war wouldn't have ended within a year.


On the other hand,without a party hostile to the Kaiser in charge,which the NAZI party most certainly was,the Kaiserreich would never have been restored.

OOC:The British found it more reasonable to negotiate with the Germans because the territorial aim was more limited and they found the German leadership more reasonable and trustworthy given they didn't break as many promises as OTL.

A year? Try 2 and a half! The Soviet Union declared war in June 1942, and didn't end until December 1944, with the surrender at Hamburg.

OOC: Yeah, I'm sorry, but a year-long Second Great War just isn't really plausible, TBH. Not at this date.

 

[Dalekiller]

The Second World War was horriofic but thankfully restrained horror, imagine if Hitler had gone on with the full of his 'Final Solution'? Imagine the next scene is the British making an Israel instead of Palestine under pressure.

And we think the Middle East is bad now, imagine Israel being the focal point and the poor people in that region who would get caught in the crossfire.

 

[Napoleon IV]

The Second World War was horriofic but thankfully restrained horror, imagine if Hitler had gone on with the full of his 'Final Solution'? Imagine the next scene is the British making an Israel instead of Palestine under pressure.

And we think the Middle East is bad now, imagine Israel being the focal point and the poor people in that region who would get caught in the crossfire.

OOC: To someone in an ATL where the Nazis never came to power the Holocaust would seem very implausible. After all Germany was far less anti-Semitic than France or Russia and the Final Solution was the result of years of Nazi policies of oppression, not something that emerged fully formed in 1933. The phrase Final Solution wasn't even used until the planning stage of the Holocaust in 1941.

 

[The Uchronian]

OOC: To someone in an ATL where the Nazis never came to power the Holocaust would seem very implausible. After all Germany was far less anti-Semitic than France or Russia and the Final Solution was the result of years of Nazi policies of oppression, not something that emerged fully formed in 1933. The phrase Final Solution wasn't even used until the planning stage of the Holocaust in 1941.

OOC: It might, but not necessarily always, though: Remember, as early as 1923, Hitler made his extreme views regarding the Jews was clear. And we already established, I think, that TTL's German militarists were still willing to engage in persecution of the Jews and Roma, even if not to the level of OTL's Holocaust/Sho'ah/Porajmos.....and they still mass murdered their leftist opponents.

 

[Avrorrange]

To be honest, the Germans already were fairly reactionary by the end of the '30s, and their mass deportations and imprisonments of Jewish people, Romani, and other "undesirables"(mainly due to the pernicious influence of that vicious bastard Joseph Goebbels, who retained his own influence after he ditched the Nazis for the militarists), not to mention the mass executions of Socialists and other "enemies of the Fatherland" IOTL, was bad enough as is.

With that said, though, perhaps Mr. Turtledove's alternate history trilogy, the "Decisive Darkness" series, tells us what a Hitlerite Germany might have been like.....and it would have been utterly horrifying, and that's putting it lightly......

OOC: Apologies to The Red-I borrowed the title from his "Decisive Darkness: What if Japan hadn't surrendered in 1945?" TL.






IC: Have you read "Decisive Darkness"? Utterly scary shit.



A year? Try 2 and a half! The Soviet Union declared war in June 1942, and didn't end until December 1944, with the surrender at Hamburg.

OOC: Yeah, I'm sorry, but a year-long Second Great War just isn't really plausible, TBH. Not at this date.

What are you talking about,you dreaming?They didn't declare war at the USSR,the war ended after Germany overran France.You must be confusing this thread with the WI Germany declared war on the USSR thread!

OOC:It's pretty clear that Stalin wouldn't have declared war on Germany first,especially if the war ended with the France and Britain.There's like a whole thread on this,and the consensus was that it's far from certain that Stalin would have entered the war,especially if there's a peace signed with the west.

 

[VictorLaszlo]

Many among the DNVP leadership were convinced they could use Hitler and the NSDAP to hold power. Under the Weimar Constitution, the Chancellor was a fairly weak figure, serving as little more than a chairman. Moreover, Cabinet decisions were made by majority vote. With this in mind, von Papen anticipated "boxing Hitler in," believing that his conservative friends' majority in the Cabinet and his closeness to Reichspräsident von Hindenburg would be enough to keep Hitler in check. Von Papen boasted to intimates that "Within two months we will have pushed Hitler so far in the corner that he'll squeak." To the warning that he was placing himself in Hitler's hands, Papen replied, "You are mistaken. We've hired him." The question is whether von Papen's conclusions were correct or not. If they were and if Hitler's Cabinet would have failed to handle the economic situation any better than previous governments, the NSDAP would, like every party holding the chancellorship during the Weimar era in a similar situation, lose a significant amount of votes in the next Reichstag elections. If von Papen was wrong then we might have seen Germany transformed into a really nasty dictatorship.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I read that Mine Camp or what ever that book was called years ago - that Adolpus (?) Hitler had issues - but I cannot see him doing any better than the Dictatorship.

I know they had limited aims but the French army is still the biggest in Europe and by 1942 will have more tanks than anyone except Russia all sitting behind that bloody great line of forts they built.

The Western Entente of France, Italy, Republic of Spain and Italy along with the support from Britain and Belgium (and lets face it - The USA would have joined in) made sure that 'Coming West' was not an option.

I shudder to think of the horror that would have been inflicted on the low countries if the Dictators had attacked.

As it was the 'Walk Softly and carry a big stick' approach seems to have worked and allowed the Mostly French Entente to move into 'Western' Germany and Austria in 1944 - taking up a line along the Elbe

This proved to be fortuitous as many believe that Stalin wished to advance all the way to the Atlantic coast!

True or not their was 11 years of the so called 'Cold War' along the internal German Boarder and elsewhere before 1955 (when Stalin died).

Once Khrushchev had risen to power and made large cuts to the size of the Red army much of the Angst went away in Western Europe and by 1965 the USSR was major trading partner with the European Union.

 

[Dalekiller]

Many among the DNVP leadership were convinced they could use Hitler and the NSDAP to hold power. Under the Weimar Constitution, the Chancellor was a fairly weak figure, serving as little more than a chairman. Moreover, Cabinet decisions were made by majority vote. With this in mind, von Papen anticipated "boxing Hitler in," believing that his conservative friends' majority in the Cabinet and his closeness to Reichspräsident von Hindenburg would be enough to keep Hitler in check. Von Papen boasted to intimates that "Within two months we will have pushed Hitler so far in the corner that he'll squeak." To the warning that he was placing himself in Hitler's hands, Papen replied, "You are mistaken. We've hired him." The question is whether von Papen's conclusions were correct or not. If they were and if Hitler's Cabinet would have failed to handle the economic situation any better than previous governments, the NSDAP would, like every party holding the chancellorship during the Weimar era in a similar situation, lose a significant amount of votes in the next Reichstag elections. If von Papen was wrong then we might have seen Germany transformed into a really nasty dictatorship.

As shown by the coup Von Papen and pals were the biggest fools in Europe. Hitler's little party was dying from fund withdrawal. The best thing to do was just keep him out of power in the first place.

Plus I have doubts about Von Hindenburg keeping him in check. In 1933 before the coup I would've put money on Hitler being head of the German State within 4-5 years because the Weimar was dying at that point.

(OOC: Sad truth, had Von Papen ignored Hitler for a few more months the NAZI party might've collapsed spectacularly)

 

[The Uchronian]

I read that Mine Camp or what ever that book was called years ago - that Adolpus (?) Hitler had issues - but I cannot see him doing any better than the Dictatorship.

I know they had limited aims but the French army is still the biggest in Europe and by 1942 will have more tanks than anyone except Russia all sitting behind that bloody great line of forts they built.

The Western Entente of France, Italy, Republic of Spain and Italy along with the support from Britain and Belgium (and lets face it - The USA would have joined in) made sure that 'Coming West' was not an option.

I shudder to think of the horror that would have been inflicted on the low countries if the Dictators had attacked.

As it was the 'Walk Softly and carry a big stick' approach seems to have worked and allowed the Mostly French Entente to move into 'Western' Germany and Austria in 1944 - taking up a line along the Elbe

This proved to be fortuitous as many believe that Stalin wished to advance all the way to the Atlantic coast!

True or not their was 11 years of the so called 'Cold War' along the internal German Boarder and elsewhere before 1955 (when Stalin died).

Once Khrushchev had risen to power and made large cuts to the size of the Red army much of the Angst went away in Western Europe and by 1965 the USSR was major trading partner with the European Union.

OOC: Sorry, but although I myself appreciate the optimism, the Cold War just wouldn't end that early, nor is it at all likely that the U.S.S.R. would be trading freely with the European Union in 1965, which wouldn't be likely to exist then anyway.

IC: Erm, what? The Cold War lasted until 1990, not 1955. Also, the U.S. *did* join in, but only after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941. And there was no European Union until 1993-you must be thinking of the European Economic Community, and the "Economic Exchange" program was fairly limited, and ended with the ascension of Leonid Brezhnev in 1977(some still think Premier Kosygin was secretly assassinated).

What are you talking about,you dreaming?They didn't declare war at the USSR,the war ended after Germany overran France.You must be confusing this thread with the WI Germany declared war on the USSR thread!

OOC:It's pretty clear that Stalin wouldn't have declared war on Germany first,especially if the war ended with the France and Britain.There's like a whole thread on this,and the consensus was that it's far from certain that Stalin would have entered the war,especially if there's a peace signed with the west.

OOC: Never said or implied that Russia declared war first, however. Also, it's actually not certain they would have remained totally neutral, even without the Nazis, regardless of what some may have stated on the other thread. But I'll go ahead and clarify things just so we don't get confused again.

IC: You must be confused; Germany *lost* World War II, dude(France did surrender in December 1942, yes, but the Resistance kept fighting until the liberation of Paris in May, '44). Now, maybe if they hadn't tried to invade Belarus in '42, they could have been able to get a "white peace" or even a marginal victory-but IOTL, their decision to invade the western fringes of the Soviet Union cost them dearly.

As shown by the coup Von Papen and pals were the biggest fools in Europe. Hitler's little party was dying from fund withdrawal. The best thing to do was just keep him out of power in the first place.

Plus I have doubts about Von Hindenburg keeping him in check. In 1933 before the coup I would've put money on Hitler being head of the German State within 4-5 years because the Weimar was dying at that point.

(OOC: Sad truth, had Von Papen ignored Hitler for a few more months the NAZI party might've collapsed spectacularly)

OOC: I think I agree: Von Papen truly did make a horrendous blunder.

 

[Dalekiller]

OOC: I think I agree: Von Papen truly did make a horrendous blunder.

OOC: Literally Hitler was going to commit suicide in a few months and wrote about it should his party fall. Source is THe Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.


One thing Ive never understood is why the German military went to war when it did. Yes they gained about 100 divisions equipment in Czechoslovakia and Austria (OOC: Very True!) and were excellently trained.

However the mech-form (Mechanized Reforms) being instituted by men like Guderian weren't even complete thus misuse of tanks were seen all around, Hobarts division nearly winning Arras if not for Guderian sending Manstein to the rescue. (OOC: Guderian was pissed about that through his bio which I've just finished reading, Panzer Leader (1952)). The German High Command had the luxury of time in everything but naval affairs and thanks to the emasculation of the U-boats for the 'rust dongs' (German battleships that are underwater in this TL) allowed the UK to escape the U-boat menace until RADAR was installed on escorts from 42 onwards.

In many respects Hitler's playbook was the one used and if Donitz had survived, I have doubts about Britain's ability to win especially with the successes of the Wolfpacks in the early of of 42.