DBWI: Muslims Conquer Spain?

[AltoRegnant]

Otl, the Visogoths managed to repulse the Umaayads from Iberia, thus keeping it Christian. But what if they failed, and Iberia fell to invaders? Could a christian state emerge in the mountainous north, ala the Kingdom of Tangiers in northern Morocco? What would the ramifications be?

Ooc: the not yet Christian berbers rebelled after the Visogoths won. In this world, the furthest islam spread in north Africa would be western (coastal) Algeria today.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Could we see greater religious zeal in a europe with the enemy right on their doorstep? OTL, the church never was a powerhouse because there was no real fear in the courts of europe for the pope to exploit since the muslims were rather insular after their failures in the west. How might this change in a world where the caliphates doesn't turn inward?

 

[JuliantheUnknown]

Could we see greater religious zeal in a europe with the enemy right on their doorstep? OTL, the church never was a powerhouse because there was no real fear in the courts of europe for the pope to exploit since the muslims were rather insular after their failures in the west. How might this change in a world where the caliphates doesn't turn inward?

I think you might have a point there. There was a significant uptick in Christian fundamentalism during the Silk Road Wars, but after the European Alliance and China came to a standstill, it returned back down to its normal level.

 

[AltoRegnant]

I think you might have a point there. There was a significant uptick in Christian fundamentalism during the Silk Road Wars, but after the European Alliance and China came to a standstill, it returned back down to its normal level.

I mean calling it china would be a bit off. It was the Mongol Empire under Ogedei Khan, who was a massive sinophile and claimed the mandate of heaven. Though now that you mention the silk road wars I wonder if the Kievan Rus would've united the eastern states in a world where Catholic Europe would likely be less developed and thus less worthy conquests. (not could, i don't see a reason why that would change, just would). A catholic poland is an interesting thought to be honest.

 

[JuliantheUnknown]

I mean calling it china would be a bit off. It was the Mongol Empire under Ogedei Khan, who was a massive sinophile and claimed the mandate of heaven. Though now that you mention the silk road wars I wonder if the Kievan Rus would've united the eastern states in a world where Catholic Europe would likely be less developed and thus less worthy conquests. (not could, i don't see a reason why that would change, just would). A catholic poland is an interesting thought to be honest.

Mongol Empire? China was the senior partner and Ogedei the junior emperor.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Mongol Empire? China was the senior partner and Ogedei the junior emperor.

Ultimately it comes down to semantics- legally it was China, but in practice most of the leaders were mongols and a lot of the men came from the steppes.
Regardless we're getting off topic. Are there any obvious consequences to Iberia being conquered? I wonder if France would be even stronger than OTL since you know Charlemagne would go for it

 

[jackson3]

Well the ERE probably wouldn’t have the opportunity to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslim world. The civil war that erupted after that utterly disastrous defeat at Tangiers followed by the debate of the heir to the Caliphate practically crippled the Arab world for almost a decade. Without that it is highly doubtful that the Romans would have had the opportunity to act on such an invasion, and of corse there was that whole thing with Ethiopia.

 

[galanx]

Can we at least dispense with the silly notion that the Christians would make a glorious comeback? No, really, I've seen this argument- that after holding Spain for hundreds of years, the Muslims would somehow get pushed out and Spain would be reabsorbed into Christendom. Sheer wank .

 

[Whiteshore]

How might this change in a world where the caliphates doesn't turn inward?

Or focus Islamic expansion into the Indian Subcontinent during their periods of expansionism as Islamic expansionism post-failure of the invasion of Spain was largely directed at India with most of the subcontinent being Muslim with some Brahmanist (OOC: *Hindu) remnants with Dravidia being majority-Brahmanist and sizable Brahmanist minorities (or even pluralities in some areas when you take into account the Sunni-Shi'a divide) in Central India and parts of Northern India.

 

[Dolan]

Well the ERE probably wouldn’t have the opportunity to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslim world. The civil war that erupted after that utterly disastrous defeat at Tangiers followed by the debate of the heir to the Caliphate practically crippled the Arab world for almost a decade. Without that it is highly doubtful that the Romans would have had the opportunity to act on such an invasion, and of corse there was that whole thing with Ethiopia.

And without The Romaioi holding The Holy Lands, there will be no incentive for Post-Mongol-Defeat Steppe Tribes , especially The Turkoi to convert into Orthodox Christianity.

Without Romaicized Turkoi, there will be no coup of Paulos Ataman, that resulted in the current Atamanoi Dynasty of the Roman Empire (OOC: Hellenized Christian Ottoman Empire)

 

[AltoRegnant]

And without The Romaioi holding The Holy Lands, there will be no incentive for Post-Mongol-Defeat Steppe Tribes , especially The Turkoi to convert into Orthodox Christianity.

Without Romaicized Turkoi, there will be no coup of Paulos Ataman, that resulted in the current Atamanoi Dynasty of the Roman Empire (OOC: Hellenized Christian Ottoman Empire)

The Atamanoi especially give lenses into a more religious Europe. They were in semi-constant war with muslim persia, which seriously effected the silk road and promoted the age of exploration. I wonder how the colonial empires would change if the Visogoths or an expanding Tangiers weren't there?

 

[Tamara]

How much of Spain’s population do you think might convert to Islam? If the Umayyads are eventually pushed out, their might be serious conflict afterwards between Christian and Muslim Spaniards.

 

[AltoRegnant]

How much of Spain’s population do you think might convert to Islam? If the Umayyads are eventually pushed out, their might be serious conflict afterwards between Christian and Muslim Spaniards.

I mean even in our world most of Egypt or persia converted from religions with decent clout, so I imagine a good majority

 

[Nikoloz]

Given that the Franks would be the only significant Nicene power remaining in the West, they may come to be seen as "Defenders of the Faith" by the Papacy.

 

[Whiteshore]

Anyways, how would Islamic expansion into the Indian Subcontinent be affected by more Muslim success in the West considering in our world, Islamic expansionism after the disasters against the Visigoths and Rhomanians was largely directed at India and Central Asia?

 

[DracoLazarus]

Can we at least dispense with the silly notion that the Christians would make a glorious comeback? No, really, I've seen this argument- that after holding Spain for hundreds of years, the Muslims would somehow get pushed out and Spain would be reabsorbed into Christendom. Sheer wank .

Given that the Franks would be the only significant Nicene power remaining in the West, they may come to be seen as "Defenders of the Faith" by the Papacy.

This. The Papacy would do all it can to make Frankia a mighty bulwark instead of a disintegrated mess, and we'd probably have a period of Frankish unification - under say a Pippinid ? Like Charles Martel ? - much earlier than we did IOTL.
Considering how much of a terrifying foe united Frankia is... it might be enough to break the Ummayad hold on the Ebro, and since everyone knows that the richest parts of Visigothia are around the Ebro...

 

[ASUKIRIK]

Anyways, how would Islamic expansion into the Indian Subcontinent be affected by more Muslim success in the West considering in our world, Islamic expansionism after the disasters against the Visigoths and Rhomanians was largely directed at India and Central Asia?

We should note that even if Persian Campaigns to conquer Central Asia could be noted as temporary successes, it was all ended in the total collapse of Persian-backed Muslim Timur'eid Khanate, as more and more Turkish and Mongol Nomads choose to still be able to drank alcohol and thus, converted to Orthodox Christianity instead.

Yes, that one did bite Roman ass later, with the Paulus Ottoman coup blindsiding the native Greeks. But yeah, the Ottoman Dynasty nowadays could be argued to be more Slavic than Turkic, with most of Emperor's Wives and Concubines originated from Serbia, and the joke is the only thing Turkish in the Later Ottoman Emperors is their Y-Chromosome.

 

[Whiteshore]

We should note that even if Persian Campaigns to conquer Central Asia could be noted as temporary successes, it was all ended in the total collapse of Persian-backed Muslim Timur'eid Khanate, as more and more Turkish and Mongol Nomads choose to still be able to drank alcohol and thus, converted to Orthodox Christianity instead.

Well, the further east you go, said Orthodox Christianity has more syncretism with Buddhism with the Uighurs being "pure" Buddhists for the most part.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

Well, the further east you go, said Orthodox Christianity has more syncretism with Buddhism with the Uighurs being "pure" Buddhists for the most part.

Which is one of the root causes of the Second Silk Road War, where Persian-Chinese Alliance tried to dislodge Christian Khanates from Central Asia, only to have the Ethiopian Empire invading Arabia and forced the Muslims to defend their holy cities, leaving the Buddhists outnumbered and thus defeated, with Uyghurs being the Western Bastion of China, no longer able to directly link with their Persian and Arab allies.

 

[Dolan]

Anyways, how would Islamic expansion into the Indian Subcontinent be affected by more Muslim success in the West considering in our world, Islamic expansionism after the disasters against the Visigoths and Rhomanians was largely directed at India and Central Asia?

Maybe they could convert basically the majority of Iberians and surprisingly resistant to any attempt to convert them back to Christianity, especially if they have Centuries to stay there.

Egypt during the Second Silk Road Wars is noted to be already converted mostly into Islam, and even with almost constant Ethiopian/Roman occupations, managed to stay as Muslim majority nation as a whole.

Yes, I know that the Fir'auns (Arabicized Pharaohs) follow a rather separate Islamic teaching nowadays compared to either Persia or Arabia, but aside of using The Sun as symbol of Allah instead of the Crescent Moon, they are pretty much the same.

Which is one of the root causes of the Second Silk Road War, where Persian-Chinese Alliance tried to dislodge Christian Khanates from Central Asia, only to have the Ethiopian Empire invading Arabia and forced the Muslims to defend their holy cities, leaving the Buddhists outnumbered and thus defeated, with Uyghurs being the Western Bastion of China, no longer able to directly link with their Persian and Arab allies.

The Romaioi never really occupied the Central Asia though, only indirectly influence them with allied Christian Khans.