DBWI: Heart of Iron: Southern Defeat Mod

[Arkocento]

There was a mod for Hearts of Iron that went was released a few months ago that was based around the Confederates getting stomped in their war for independance back in the 60s, instead of collapsing about 80 years later.

The creator was slightly vague about how it happened but the Confederates under Robert E. Lee are stopped before they get to Philadelphia and are forced to retreat at a battle that wrecked both opposing armies. Afterwards Lincoln pulls out his Semi-Mythical Emancipation Proclimation, and I guess that butterflies the French and British intervention, and is able to conquer the CSA without any sort of Intervention. Surprisingly The US doesn't expand beyond their Pre-Southern Revolution borders, instead poking around in the Pacific and I guess Jumpstarting their Rivalry with Japan.

I think Germany forms all the same but Ends up With the US as an Enemy which utterly crushes them in the First Weltkrieg, which leads to Some Twisted German Action Francaiseque thing taking power in the country.

Also Russia is communist....Seriously every Mod seems to assume Russia goes communist, its weird.

 

[Seleucus]

Eh, Russia isn't too different qualitatively from the CSA (entrenched aristocracy, large oppressed minority populations, historical legacy of serfdom/slavery, agrarian economy barely starting to industrialize, powerful neighbors and national aspirations far larger than capabilities.) Given the anarcho-syndicalist revolution we saw in Dixieland, I don't think it would be too off there for this "Bolshevism" thing to take off in Russia.

Still, I checked out the mod a bit, and Russian IC is way overpowered. I mean, seriously. The CASAS* wasn't that terrible (hey, at least they were an improvement on their predecessor), but they weren't capable of anything like the industrial power we see in this "Soviet Union."

I guess they just wanted to boost Russia for balance purposes?


*Confederation of Anarcho-Syndicalist American States

 

[The Uchronian]

There was a mod for Hearts of Iron that went was released a few months ago that was based around the Confederates getting stomped in their war for independance back in the 60s, instead of collapsing about 80 years later.

The creator was slightly vague about how it happened but the Confederates under Robert E. Lee are stopped before they get to Philadelphia and are forced to retreat at a battle that wrecked both opposing armies. Afterwards Lincoln pulls out his Semi-Mythical Emancipation Proclimation, and I guess that butterflies the French and British intervention, and is able to conquer the CSA without any sort of Intervention. Surprisingly The US doesn't expand beyond their Pre-Southern Revolution borders, instead poking around in the Pacific and I guess Jumpstarting their Rivalry with Japan.

I think Germany forms all the same but Ends up With the US as an Enemy which utterly crushes them in the First Weltkrieg, which leads to Some Twisted German Action Francaiseque thing taking power in the country.

Also Russia is communist....Seriously every Mod seems to assume Russia goes communist, its weird.

I believe this may have been inspired by Turtledove's groundbreaking "Northern Victory" AH series.....in which there was a Soviet Union that ended up becoming a true rival to the U.S., whereas our world's Russia, though itself a great nuclear power(and, for over 40 years after World War II, our archrivals), never really could match us in most other fields. And, btw, the German fascists ITTL, were far, far nastier than our world's Action Francais, who themselves weren't exactly likeable.

 

[Caesar Biden]

Well, it has a detailed history, I'll give you that, although some stuff is as implausible as hell (have you read the lead up to their first Great War?). I haven't played many games, cause after starting one as the Soviet Union I realized how OP they were.

 

[Germaniac]

I found all the German fascists as rather distasteful, especially what they called “ the final answer" I found that to be absurd that any modern state with an educated population could agree to have any part in it.

 

[The Uchronian]

I found all the German fascists as rather distasteful, especially what they called “ the final answer" I found that to be absurd that any modern state with an educated population could agree to have any part in it.

I don't disagree with you that much, but if you've read "Northern Victory", it actually wasn't entirely implausible, either, given the circumstances ITTL.

It's just that, speaking of OTL's Action Francais, they were hardly extremist, and may even have been only quasi-fascist(and they were actually legitimately elected to power in the 1939 French elections, unlike TTL's Nazis, who basically rigged their election). And although they weren't exactly nice to ethnic Germans(and Ashkenazi Jews, most of whom were grouped together with them), or the Flemish/Dutch, outright genocide just isn't something they would have done, or even considered(especially not after the Ottoman government ended up killing off many of their Armenians, and quite a few Kurds and Lebanese, etc. in 1920-24). And I think that's probably why so many people think it can't be possible, simply because of the sheer amount of awful horrors the Nazis committed ITTL, and even their over the top nature in general.

OOC: Well, okay. I didn't want my character to sound like an apologist for the TTL AF, but I don't think they would have been nearly on the level that our world's Nazis were.

 

[Arkocento]

I don't disagree with you that much, but if you've read "Northern Victory", it actually wasn't entirely implausible, either, given the circumstances ITTL.

It's just that, speaking of OTL's Action Francais, they were hardly extremist, and may even have been only quasi-fascist(and they were actually legitimately elected to power in the 1939 French elections, unlike TTL's Nazis, who basically rigged their election). And although they weren't exactly nice to ethnic Germans(and Ashkenazi Jews, most of whom were grouped together with them), or the Flemish/Dutch, outright genocide just isn't something they would have done, or even considered(especially not after the Ottoman government ended up killing off many of their Armenians, and quite a few Kurds and Lebanese, etc. in 1920-24). And I think that's probably why so many people think it can't be possible, simply because of the sheer amount of awful horrors the Nazis committed ITTL, and even their over the top nature in general.

OOC: Well, okay. I didn't want my character to sound like an apologist for the TTL AF, but I don't think they would have been nearly on the level that our world's Nazis were.

What are you even talking about? The mod didn't depict the Nazi's as genocidal maniacs. It depicted them as relatively mad i'll give you that, but if anything The Russians under Stalin seemed hell bent on utterly destroying themselves ( Not that I don't like that, the Great Purge makes fighting them a breeze, The Modders probably needed a way to make a war between Germany and Russia at least a possible German victory given that ridiculous IC)

I haven't read Turtledoves Series, but if he displays the Nazis in the way you describe them, its less obvious in the Game.

Honestly if thats true though, it turns whats a neat spin on history into some Shitty jab at Germany from the perspective of a Francophile.

Given the anarcho-syndicalist revolution we saw in Dixieland, I don't think it would be too off there for this "Bolshevism" thing to take off in Russia.

Erm, not to bust your bubble, but remember Lenin? that guy who kicked off the failed russian civil war? He was a Bolshevik last I checked, so its rather odd to depict it like its fake or something,

Its odd though, Bolshevism was a really terrifying version of Socialism, So imagine if Blackford had turned out to be like Lenin, instead of the bumbling fool We ended up with. Can you imagine America turning out just as bad as the CSA under Featherston? Now that would be more terrifying then anything Hitler does in the mod.

 

[The Uchronian]

What are you even talking about? The mod didn't depict the Nazi's as genocidal maniacs. It depicted them as relatively mad i'll give you that, but if anything The Russians under Stalin seemed hell bent on utterly destroying themselves ( Not that I don't like that, the Great Purge makes fighting them a breeze, The Modders probably needed a way to make a war between Germany and Russia at least a possible German victory given that ridiculous IC)

I haven't read Turtledoves Series, but if he displays the Nazis in the way you describe them, its less obvious in the Game.

Honestly if thats true though, it turns whats a neat spin on history into some Shitty jab at Germany from the perspective of a Francophile.

Well, yeah, that's basically it; the Nazis were indeed toned down in the mod from what they really were in Turtledove's book-the mod creator himself, as I recall, didn't want to either offend the German/Austrian members of the community, or run the risk of having to deal with copyright issues(in fact, they're not even called the Nazis in the mod itself).

Erm, not to bust your bubble, but remember Lenin? that guy who kicked off the failed russian civil war? He was a Bolshevik last I checked, so its rather odd to depict it like its fake or something,

Its odd though, Bolshevism was a really terrifying version of Socialism, So imagine if Blackford had turned out to be like Lenin, instead of the bumbling fool We ended up with. Can you imagine America turning out just as bad as the CSA under Featherston? Now that would be more terrifying then anything Hitler does in the mod.

Yeah, General Featherston was a crazy nut indeed; he apparently believed that the Catholic Church was actively working to undermine the foundations of the CASAS, and that every other Catholic in the country was either part of, or party to, the alleged conspiracy! So yeah, if there had been a real-life Stalin equivalent, he'd have been the closest to that, I suspect.

 

[Binky the Clown]

Well, yeah, that's basically it; the Nazis were indeed toned down in the mod from what they really were in Turtledove's book-the mod creator himself, as I recall, didn't want to either offend the German/Austrian members of the community, or run the risk of having to deal with copyright issues(in fact, they're not even called the Nazis in the mod itself).

They're called the NSDAP or "National Socialists" in the mod, Nazi being a nickname Turtledove gave them. Nazi is derived from their full name, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. Don't let that fool you, however: they're pretty much the German version of the Freedom Party.

OOC: Are we going with TL-191 canon or some other canon in this thread? I've seen both TL-191 and an alternate canon mentioned.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Build priorities with the US are so different in that mod: In vanilla, you can mostly ignore the Navy and just use what you start with - what you need is infantry, armour and aircraft. In the mod it's all overseas fighting, so you need a massive Navy - especially in the Pacific since you have to conquer Japan and not just fight to a draw then make peace, as OTL.