DBWI: Democratic America and Fascist Germany?

[pattontank12]

Well today it's finally happened the Nationalist States Union of America has fallen and there's even talk about the old United States government in the Philippines being brought back has the official government of mainland America. Now I think the world can finally sigh in piece now that the stare down between the German Empire and NSUA is finally over.

Though now I'm wondering what would of happened if the likes of Pelley, Moseley, Murray, Coughlin, Ford and J.E Hoover never came to power and America remained democratic or if Germany had somehow went Fascist, following the First Great War?

 

[ennobee]

Fascist Germany? Never going to happen! Italy and the US had their ghettos for Jews and people of color. Germany never had people of color and their 50/50 ratio of Catholics and protestants made sure that it never had one dominant religion and as a byproduct that Jews were almost completely integrated in society. No way a nation like THIS could fall for fascism's cheap slogans. Just as much chance of seeing fascism take root in the Netherlands or Denmark or Sweden.

 

[StrikeEcho]

But, there was this fringe "NSDAP" or something party in the 1930s or so.

 

[B-29_Bomber]

Fascist Germany? Never going to happen! Italy and the US had their ghettos for Jews and people of color. Germany never had people of color and their 50/50 ratio of Catholics and protestants made sure that it never had one dominant religion and as a byproduct that Jews were almost completely integrated in society. No way a nation like THIS could fall for fascism's cheap slogans. Just as much chance of seeing fascism take root in the Netherlands or Denmark or Sweden.

Well, if Germany lost the Great War and got saddled with "War Guilt" and massive reparations from the winning side it could potentially push Germany to the edge.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Well, if Germany lost the Great War and got saddled with "War Guilt" and massive reparations from the winning side it could potentially push Germany to the edge.

Nah, it would be like France or Russia and fall to the far left, or like Britain and become a left wing democracy. Losing the war empowered the left, not the right.

 

[Tito Andronicus]

But, there was this fringe "NSDAP" or something party in the 1930s or so.

The Neuen Suddeutscher Alliance for Prosperity? Electorally, they were a complete joke - the only reason anyone's heard of them today is because the assassin that killed Chancellor Stresemann (I think his name was Drexler?) said that he was inspired by their ideas, presumably because no other party would have him. The closest thing Germany ever had to a fascist party were the far-right factions forming around people like von Schleicher and von Stauffenberg - but the German model of 'Junker ultraconservatism', which we see today in a diluted form with the German Heritage Party, is very different to fascism in many ways.

Nah, it would be like France or Russia and fall to the far left, or like Britain and become a left wing democracy. Losing the war empowered the left, not the right.

Exactly - virtually every country that's lost a modern war (the Entente after the Weltkrieg; the Ottoman Republic in the 1940s; the Indian states on the losing side of the Great Indic War) has responded by heading leftwards, presumably inspired by thinkers such as Uljanov and Semard. America is virtually the only major exception to this, and the conditions that led to the creation of American fascism/Manifestism were very specific ones to the USA.

 

[Phalamus]

No, sorry, there's absolutely now way American reunification is going to happen. Statistics show that most people in the Philippines now see themselves as solely Filipinos, not Americans, and while its true that the old-US Republican Party is still fairly popular (they're currently official opposition to the incumbent pro-independence government), there's no way they'd win an election if they proposed imediate reunification.

I think the most likely outcome of this is that American is going to balkanize. As of now, two states, Texas and California are already preparing to hold independence referendums, which I think are almost certain to pass. After that, California is likely to join the Japanese Co-prosperity Sphere. As for Texas, we'll have to wait to see.

Also, I have no doubt that both the Soviets and the French are cooking up something by now. We already know that communist and syndicallist movements are popular amongst southern blacks. It's only a matter of time before we see some kind of People's Republic of New Afrika showing up in the deep south. Of course, it could also be a "Commune of New Africa" if the French are fast enough...

I really don't know if it's communists or syndicallists that have the largest number of supporters there. Could they maybe cooperate? We know that the Soviet Union and the Commune of France don't exactly get along well, but relationships have improved a lot in recent years.

Now, the US will probably survive somehow, but I imagine it will be only in the Northeast and it will most likely be in close association with Canada and the British Republic.

 

[Tito Andronicus]

No, sorry, there's absolutely now way American reunification is going to happen. Statistics show that most people in the Philippines now see themselves as solely Filipinos, not Americans, and while its true that the old-US Republican Party is still fairly popular (they're currently official opposition to the incumbent pro-independence government), there's no way they'd win an election if they proposed imediate reunification.

I think the most likely outcome of this is that American is going to balkanize. As of now, two states, Texas and California are already preparing to hold independence referendums, which I think are almost certain to pass. After that, California is likely to join the Japanese Co-prosperity Sphere. As for Texas, we'll have to wait to see.

Also, I have no doubt that both the Soviets and the French are cooking up something by now. We already know that communist and syndicallist movements are popular amongst southern blacks. It's only a matter of time before we see some kind of People's Republic of New Afrika showing up in the deep south. Of course, it could also be a "Commune of New Africa" if the French are fast enough...

I really don't know if it's communists or syndicallists that have the largest number of supporters there. Could they maybe cooperate? We know that the Soviet Union and the Commune of France don't exactly get along well, but relationships have improved a lot in recent years.

Now, the US will probably survive somehow, but I imagine it will be only in the Northeast and it will most likely be in close association with Canada and the British Republic.

Agreed - the Philippines have been looking west rather than east for a good few decades now, since the war in Indochina and the Chinese crisis. As for the rest of America, the local mood in Texas certainly seems like they'll vote to secede, and presumably subsequently ally with Mexico and the Yucatan League, whilst Florida may well follow them and a southern republic based around the Mississippi seems plausible. It's worth remembering as well that Mexico recently elected a government with strong syndicalist tendencies and close links to France, so there's the possibility that Paris will exercise influence through that route in the south of the country.

 

[pattontank12]

No, sorry, there's absolutely now way American reunification is going to happen. Statistics show that most people in the Philippines now see themselves as solely Filipinos, not Americans, and while its true that the old-US Republican Party is still fairly popular (they're currently official opposition to the incumbent pro-independence government), there's no way they'd win an election if they proposed imediate reunification.

I think the most likely outcome of this is that American is going to balkanize. As of now, two states, Texas and California are already preparing to hold independence referendums, which I think are almost certain to pass. After that, California is likely to join the Japanese Co-prosperity Sphere. As for Texas, we'll have to wait to see.

Also, I have no doubt that both the Soviets and the French are cooking up something by now. We already know that communist and syndicallist movements are popular amongst southern blacks. It's only a matter of time before we see some kind of People's Republic of New Afrika showing up in the deep south. Of course, it could also be a "Commune of New Africa" if the French are fast enough...

I really don't know if it's communists or syndicallists that have the largest number of supporters there. Could they maybe cooperate? We know that the Soviet Union and the Commune of France don't exactly get along well, but relationships have improved a lot in recent years.

Now, the US will probably survive somehow, but I imagine it will be only in the Northeast and it will most likely be in close association with Canada and the British Republic.

You mean Russians right? Since the rest of Eastern Europe outside of Russia are staunch members of the MittelEuropa Alliance. Which is understandable considering the rampage fascist Russia went on during the second Great War. Seriously it took the use of several Heisenberg devices to put them down. Has for France weren't the Syndicalists crushes during the French Civil War back in the 1920's? Still I'm not sure how much either can do for the black population in America. Since there simply isn't that many blacks left. After the decades of NSUA rule.

Well at least places like Mexico and Cuba are finally going to regain their independence. Even if it does look Brazil might be moving to seize their old allies old South American territory.

Wonder what this will mean for the Italian (or Roman has the call themselves) Empire and the State of Brazil. Now that their biggest ally is gone and are the last to major fascist countries left.

 

[glenn67]

Now, the US will probably survive somehow, but I imagine it will be only in the Northeast and it will most likely be in close association with Canada and the British Republic.

Let us not forget that Burlington will be where the leaders of the NSUA regime will be tried for crimes against humanity.

 

[Solomi]

Ah, Texas and California, the most prominent example of the vitriolic best buds trope in the last years of the Cold War against the American fascists in the government.

Wonder what their relationship from this point onward will be now that they've finally gone their separate ways?

 

[B-29_Bomber]

Wonder what this will mean for the Italian (or Roman has the call themselves) Empire and the State of Brazil. Now that their biggest ally is gone and are the last to major fascist countries left.

If they keep their heads down they might be left alone to wallow in petty isolation.

Let us not forget that Burlington will be where the leaders of the NSUA regime will be tried for crimes against humanity.

OoC: Why would there be trials if this NSUA didn't collapse due to a major war? I doubt that the worst crimes would be well known outside the old NSUA, much like how it was with OTL Soviet crimes.

 

[pattontank12]

If they keep their heads down they might be left alone to wallow in petty isolation.

Well both Italy and Brazil ended up has America's rivals. After Balbo succeeded Mussolini and caused the Italo-American split. With Brazil ending up in the Italian camp.

Ah, Texas and California, the most prominent example of the vitriolic best buds trope in the last years of the Cold War against the American fascists in the government.

Wonder what their relationship from this point onward will be now that they've finally gone their separate ways?

Well Texas seems to be leaning more to the German Geo-political sphere. While California is starting to lean more to the Japanese sphere of influence. Chances are were going to see them competing against each other for influence, on the North American continent.

Well, if Germany lost the Great War and got saddled with "War Guilt" and massive reparations from the winning side it could potentially push Germany to the edge.

Does make sense. You would probably need someone charismatic enough to pull all those various right wing elements together though. If I remember right wasn't Hitler the famous war hero turned film director, set designer and writer was said to of had some supposed fascist leanings?

Nah, it would be like France or Russia and fall to the far left, or like Britain and become a left wing democracy. Losing the war empowered the left, not the right.

I wouldn't be so sure. Remember the Bolsheviks in Russia were crushed thanks to German intervention. While Britain ended up under the joint Mosley and Churchill regime up until the 80's. Has for France the Syndicalists have been out of power since the 70's. After their economy went into the gutter.

 

[pattontank12]

Bumb

 

[Deleted member 82792]

Wasn't there some crazy man running around Germany named Adolf Hitler?

 

[Whiteshore]

Though now I'm wondering what would of happened if the likes of Pelley, Moseley, Murray, Coughlin, Ford and J.E Hoover never came to power and America remained democratic or if Germany had somehow went Fascist, following the First Great War?

Well, a Fascist Germany would probably be closer to the Japanese Empire than to the NSUA in terms of how it is run (i.e there would be no single dictator, just an oligarchy of military leaders, party officials, conservative bureaucrats/elites, and business leaders).

 

[Tales Weaver]

I hope newly formed USA would be a full democracy...