DBWI: America without Canada

[The Uchronian]

What is this New Brunswick you speak of?

OOC: New Brunswick was separated from Nova Scotia by the British in 1784, after the POD, so there wouldn't be any such thing

OOC: May I suggest "Nova Acadia" as an alternative? It would be fitting, IMO. In any case, I do highly doubt that *New Brunswick, or whatever we call it here, would have remained part of Nova Scotia until the present day.

 

[SvoHljott]

OOC: May I suggest "Nova Acadia" as an alternative? It would be fitting, IMO. In any case, I do highly doubt that *New Brunswick, or whatever we call it here, would have remained part of Nova Scotia until the present day.

OOC: It's likely it would separate, I agree - but seeing as the name "New Brunswick" was given because of George III's heritage, it's pretty much ASB that the Americans would call it that post-independence.

 

[free115]

Kinda hard to imagine the US not having the Canadian states.... Well I guess the US might get into more wars with the UK had Canada been part of the Empire.

 

[The Uchronian]

OOC: It's likely it would separate, I agree - but seeing as the name "New Brunswick" was given because of George III's heritage, it's pretty much ASB that the Americans would call it that post-independence.

OOC: Makes sense to me as well, having thought about it. Hopefully Nova Acadia works fine.

Kinda hard to imagine the US not having the Canadian states.... Well I guess the US might get into more wars with the UK had Canada been part of the Empire.

IC: It's definitely possible. And I do wonder, too, if we might have had more difficulty gaining California and just about everywhere else west of the Rio Grande during the Mexican War, if we hadn't had the extra manpower from the former Canada? I mean, sure, there's no doubt that President Joseph Garrison was a great tactitian, but we had some difficulty with fighting off Santa Anna as it was.

OOC: Joseph Garrison is an ATL elder brother of William L. Garrison....yes, that William Garrison, the abolitionist. Also, one question I'd like to ask is, could we give the U.S. Baja California and Sonora(and northern Chihuahua, too, grafted on to Sonora), on top of everything else, or do we give Mexico a little more of a break and let them keep Baja Cal. and Sonora, and even a few parts of OTL *southern Arizona besides?

 

[Gurroruo]

I mean would the French Big Move even occur? I mean I couldn't imagine the same huge amount of French libertarians moving to America during the Napoleonic Wars and subsequent Absolutist Era. I mean could you imagine the northern states without the huge French cultural influence?

 

[Zheng He]

I mean would the French Big Move even occur? I mean I couldn't imagine the same huge amount of French libertarians moving to America during the Napoleonic Wars and subsequent Absolutist Era. I mean could you imagine the northern states without the huge French cultural influence?

Good point, I can't imagine Boston as anything other than the second largest "French city" in the world (after Paris of course).

 

[The Uchronian]

Good point, I can't imagine Boston as anything other than the second largest "French city" in the world (after Paris of course).

Erm....wha? That might have been true for a brief period in the 1820s(admittedly, the slogan is still quite famous in the area), but Boston's only running about 7% Franco-American these days. There are actually a higher percentage of people of Jewish, German, Polish, and yes, African descent, seperately, than French(I've actually been there, too, btw. Very few French restaurants, but lots of German & Jewish delis. Quite a few Jamaican places, too). For some reason you managed to get it completely mixed up with Montreal, a city with almost quadruple the population(and over half Franco-American at that).....no offense.

OOC: Yeah, I honestly don't see Boston becoming that. Montreal is definitely a far more plausible candidate, by a *very* long shot, just thanks to geography alone, not to mention cultural history, etc.

 

[Gurroruo]

OOC: Yeah, I honestly don't see Boston becoming that. Montreal is definitely a far more plausible candidate, by a *very* long shot, just thanks to geography alone, not to mention cultural history, etc.

OOC: Yeah, I think he thought by northern states I meant OTL northern states, here by Northern states I mean Canadian states

 

[Agent of SHIELD]

Erm....wha? That might have been true for a brief period in the 1820s(admittedly, the slogan is still quite famous in the area), but Boston's only running about 7% Franco-American these days. There are actually a higher percentage of people of Jewish, German, Polish, and yes, African descent, seperately, than French(I've actually been there, too, btw. Very few French restaurants, but lots of German & Jewish delis. Quite a few Jamaican places, too). For some reason you managed to get it completely mixed up with Montreal, a city with almost quadruple the population(and over half Franco-American at that).....no offense.

OOC: Yeah, I honestly don't see Boston becoming that. Montreal is definitely a far more plausible candidate, by a *very* long shot, just thanks to geography alone, not to mention cultural history, etc.

In fairness, it's an easy mistake to make. Boston loves playing up its Frenchness as much as it does its role in the Revolutionary War. Seriously, they like talking about it more than St. John likes talking about how "Irish" it is or Cleaveland playing up its "Polish-ness" (although that last one is fairly true. Cleaveland has the most Polish-speakers anywhere outside of Poland.)

But its like Boston forgets that Montreal and New Orleans are way more French. Although I think that might be because people are just so used to those cities being "French" that its taken for granted anymore.

OOC: I figured why use the stereotype of New York or Boston as "Irish" and picked St. John, New Brunswick for the Irish, seemed a good change if TTL has all of Canada. Plus with the founder of Cleveland having fought in the ARW I figure he might still live but for the sake of the butterflies I kept the original spelling.

 

[The Uchronian]

In fairness, it's an easy mistake to make. Boston loves playing up its Frenchness as much as it does its role in the Revolutionary War. Seriously, they like talking about it more than St. John likes talking about how "Irish" it is or Cleaveland playing up its "Polish-ness" (although that last one is fairly true. Cleaveland has the most Polish-speakers anywhere outside of Poland.)

But its like Boston forgets that Montreal and New Orleans are way more French. Although I think that might be because people are just so used to those cities being "French" that its taken for granted anymore.

OOC: I figured why use the stereotype of New York or Boston as "Irish" and picked St. John, New Brunswick for the Irish, seemed a good change if TTL has all of Canada. Plus with the founder of Cleveland having fought in the ARW I figure he might still live but for the sake of the butterflies I kept the original spelling.

IC: That's definitely true, yeah. And Los Angeles and Chicago both have a significant number of Italian-Americans in their city limits; heck, these two cities weren't once colloquially called the Verona and Rome of the West(respectively), for nothin'! Portland, Ore., as a whole is sometimes called "Little Beijing", after a certain neighborhood. And Dallas, East Texas is still referred to as Little Bavaria(although German-Americans of south German descent only make up about 70,000 residents these days). And is it any wonder why Winnipeg's hometown baseball team were called the "Moscovites" up until 1947?

So, indeed, it isn't just a Montreal, Quebec, or New Orleans, Boston, or a Cleaveland, Tippecanoe thing. This is something we see pretty much everywhere in America. We are a country that prides itself quite a bit on our reputation as the "stewpot of the world", as it were.

 

[Ameise]

I remember reading that Benedict Arnold (who we all know and love, of course) nearly switched sides due to a dispute with the Continental Congress; now I know that that particular theory isn't terribly popular on this forum, but let's presume it's accurate for the sake of argument. I suspect that if the Continental Army does not successfully take Canada, the war goes far worse for the United States, and Arnold may even betray his country; this obviously would be bad for the Continental forces, and we wouldn't even have a state named Benedict!

Also, don't forget that Arnold was one of Washington's chief advisors near the end of the war and immediately thereafter; he was one of men who convinced Washington not to seize power!

 

[Agent of SHIELD]

I remember reading that Benedict Arnold (who we all know and love, of course) nearly switched sides due to a dispute with the Continental Congress; now I know that that particular theory isn't terribly popular on this forum, but let's presume it's accurate for the sake of argument. I suspect that if the Continental Army does not successfully take Canada, the war goes far worse for the United States, and Arnold may even betray his country; this obviously would be bad for the Continental forces, and we wouldn't even have a state named Benedict!

Also, don't forget that Arnold was one of Washington's chief advisors near the end of the war and immediately thereafter; he was one of men who convinced Washington not to seize power!

Don't forget the city of Arnold, CL. And I've seen that argument on the forum before. Most of it revolves around his fiancée, Margaret Shippen. Arnold himself admitted he was in love with her, and knew she was a loyalist, but that when he found out she was close friends with a British officer he broke off the engagement, famously saying, "If I must choose between betraying my heart or my country, I would rather have my heart torn out than my honor disgraced and my body swinging from the gallows."

Most TL's with Arnold's 'betrayal' feature him not receiving recognition for his actions in the Quebec and Saratoga Campaigns, thus growing bitter and being receptive towards selling secrets. A few even have him selling the blueprints to Fort Kosciuszko (then called West Point), with one actually having the British officer being caught with the plans and hung as a spy deserves. Personally, I don't buy it. This was a man who lost his leg in the war and was second to only Washington himself. Hell, the man was the 3rd President of the country. Like the other poster mentioned he has a state and a major city named after him. Hell, the football team of Arnold are named the Patriots in recognition of his love of America!

As for how this independent Canada would be, I agree it'd be mostly populated with loyalists after the war. I really doubt it'd last long term with a hostile U.S. just south of it, but if they can get some immigration they might just hang in there, though even with British support I don't see how it'd happen past mid-1800's. They'd probably have a really small population however.

OOC: Had the idea for a city named after Arnold but couldn't find a way to include it earlier. Arnold, CL is a city in the Pacific Northwest. CL is the Postal abbreviation for Columbia. I figure Arnold as a city would be somewhere between Seattle and Vancouver OTL. I've been to both personally but admittedly have no idea where would be the best place for a port city without the border there.

 

[Muwatalli']

My guess is, if the revolution is still succesful, the Americans would conquer Canada anyway later. Canada has a low population, there is no way the British will be able to defend and keep it.
If for some reason Britian manages to keep Canada, I can see the United States trying to expand in other directions, like Cuba or California (Don't forget that a lot of people in the late 19th century actually wanted that the Californian Republic would join the US, which was why the United States decided to aid them in the first place)

But this scenario is hard to imagine. The United States is just too powerful. Maybe a breakup of the US could work?

 

[Historyman 14]

My guess is, if the revolution is still succesful, the Americans would conquer Canada anyway later. Canada has a low population, there is no way the British will be able to defend and keep it.
If for some reason Britian manages to keep Canada, I can see the United States trying to expand in other directions, like Cuba or California (Don't forget that a lot of people in the late 19th century actually wanted that the Californian Republic would join the US, which was why the United States decided to aid them in the first place)

But this scenario is hard to imagine. The United States is just too powerful. Maybe a breakup of the US could work?

How? Maybe the Civil War? The South did well at the start.

 

[Agent of SHIELD]

My guess is, if the revolution is still succesful, the Americans would conquer Canada anyway later. Canada has a low population, there is no way the British will be able to defend and keep it.
If for some reason Britian manages to keep Canada, I can see the United States trying to expand in other directions, like Cuba or California (Don't forget that a lot of people in the late 19th century actually wanted that the Californian Republic would join the US, which was why the United States decided to aid them in the first place)

But this scenario is hard to imagine. The United States is just too powerful. Maybe a breakup of the US could work?

How? Maybe the Civil War? The South did well at the start.

The Californian Republic did join the US. It was the whole reason it was founded in the first place. Thing was basically Texas 2.0. Though we divided it into 3 states unlike Texas' 2 states.

Yes the South did do well at the start, but that was mostly because so many of the generals who joined the South did so before the ink on their resignation letters were dry. Hell, in a few cases they had orders sent to them to stop the rebels before their resignations were received by the War Department. The Union was thrown into disarray when the South left. They thought all the secession talk was a bluff to get another concession.


OOC: Sorry to rain on your parade @Muwatalli', but CaliBoy1990 already mentioned Los Angeles was part of the US, so California has to be too.

 

[Muwatalli']

The Californian Republic did join the US. It was the whole reason it was founded in the first place. Thing was basically Texas 2.0. Though we divided it into 3 states unlike Texas' 2 states.

Yes the South did do well at the start, but that was mostly because so many of the generals who joined the South did so before the ink on their resignation letters were dry. Hell, in a few cases they had orders sent to them to stop the rebels before their resignations were received by the War Department. The Union was thrown into disarray when the South left. They thought all the secession talk was a bluff to get another concession.


OOC: Sorry to rain on your parade @Muwatalli', but CaliBoy1990 already mentioned Los Angeles was part of the US, so California has to be too.

OOC: Missed that one.

 

[The Uchronian]

The Californian Republic did join the US. It was the whole reason it was founded in the first place. Thing was basically Texas 2.0. Though we divided it into 3 states unlike Texas' 2 states.

Yes the South did do well at the start, but that was mostly because so many of the generals who joined the South did so before the ink on their resignation letters were dry. Hell, in a few cases they had orders sent to them to stop the rebels before their resignations were received by the War Department. The Union was thrown into disarray when the South left. They thought all the secession talk was a bluff to get another concession.


OOC: Sorry to rain on your parade @Muwatalli', but CaliBoy1990 already mentioned Los Angeles was part of the US, so California has to be too.

OOC: Erm....California, or at least those areas not part of Baja or what was the the OTL proposed state of Jefferson was supposed to be one state originally(including L.A.). Although, if I misread you here, apologies in advance.

 

[Agent of SHIELD]

OOC: Erm....California, or at least those areas not part of Baja or what was the the OTL proposed state of Jefferson was supposed to be one state originally(including L.A.). Although, if I misread you here, apologies in advance.

OOC: No need to apologize. I was saying IC, that California did join the US after pulling a Texas, but either joined as separate states as part of the deal or split up somewhere along the line, because three "Californias" seemed fun. Since you mentioned L.A. being a US city I figured a Californian Republic wouldn't last to the modern day, and no one mentioned California being one big state.

Hope that clears up the confusion and is cool with everyone.

Also, if the US had Canada, how would that affect Russian Alaska? Would they still sell it? Or think they really need to hold onto it? If the latter how does that effect US-Russian relations which were pretty good for most of the 19th Century? TBH I think a minor "Alaskan War" would be interesting.

 

[Historyman 14]

OOC: No need to apologize. I was saying IC, that California did join the US after pulling a Texas, but either joined as separate states as part of the deal or split up somewhere along the line, because three "Californias" seemed fun. Since you mentioned L.A. being a US city I figured a Californian Republic wouldn't last to the modern day, and no one mentioned California being one big state.

Hope that clears up the confusion and is cool with everyone.

Also, if the US had Canada, how would that affect Russian Alaska? Would they still sell it? Or think they really need to hold onto it? If the latter how does that effect US-Russian relations which were pretty good for most of the 19th Century? TBH I think a minor "Alaskan War" would be interesting.

OOC: Maybe the US and Russia had a war over it, US either took all of it, or part of it. Does that sounds good?

 

[Agent of SHIELD]

OOC: Maybe the US and Russia had a war over it, US either took all of it, or part of it. Does that sounds good?

Honestly I was just throwing it out there. I don't know if its ever been done before and it sounded like a cool way to have a Russo-American War that's not WWIII. But you're the OP so I'll leave it up to you and any others who want to flesh that one out.