DBWI AHC: Butterflies needed for this massive Asian Empire?

The Lethargic Lett

The Lethargic Lett

mongol-empire-map-vector.jpg


Found this unlabeled map on an Alternate History forum in a pre-1900 forum. It looks like a classic case of a ridiculously large space-filling empire in a TL where Asia isn't the focus, but just for the sake of it, is there any way to create this Empire? My first instinct is to say that it's a Chinawank, but it doesn't make any sense that China would go that far west. Maybe the Huns go east towards Mesopotamia and China instead of west into Roman territory? I suppose that's a possibility. Thoughts?
 
Timaeus

Timaeus

Maybe a pan-Tocharian empire established by Alishanda the Kingslayer?

And why the hell are you two treating the lands of the Huaxia as if they could possibly ever be united?
 
Planet of Hats

Planet of Hats

Donor
My inclination is to say it's some kind of steppe people wank. You wouldn't see sedentary powers trying to conquer that much open grassland.

JSilvy said:
Sino-Seljuk Union?
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I don't think the Seljuks had the reach. Certainly the remaining Oghuz couldn't do this; the Seljuk migration took a lot of their people along.

Maybe this is a TL in which the Seljuks overextended and fractured, and this empire reflects someone who came along after them. But I have no idea who could pull this off. The only two big steppe empires after that period were the Kipchaks, who went to Rus', and the Khamags, who ended up settling in Zhetysu and the Tarim Basin. You'd need some kind of rollicking monster pan-nomad alliance to take down both China and Persia, and those kinds of huge confederations didn't really happen after the Gokturks.
 

JSilvy

The Lethargic Let said:
That makes a lot of sense from a geographic/border perspective, but I don't know why, politically, there would be such a union.
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The Turkic tribes were quite a bit of trouble for the Chinese, and many of the Turkic tribes were also a threat to the Turkic Seljuks. It's possible the two empires saw it fit to form an alliance and then formed a union at some point. Idk tho still unrealistic.
 

JSilvy

Planet of Hats said:
My inclination is to say it's some kind of steppe people wank. You wouldn't see sedentary powers trying to conquer that much open grassland.


I don't think the Seljuks had the reach. Certainly the remaining Oghuz couldn't do this; the Seljuk migration took a lot of their people along.

Maybe this is a TL in which the Seljuks overextended and fractured, and this empire reflects someone who came along after them. But I have no idea who could pull this off. The only two big steppe empires after that period were the Kipchaks, who went to Rus', and the Khamags, who ended up settling in Zhetysu and the Tarim Basin. You'd need some kind of rollicking monster pan-nomad alliance to take down both China and Persia, and those kinds of huge confederations didn't really happen after the Gokturks.
Click to expand...

Gokturk empire? Maybe the Rus conquered Iran and China.
 
Planet of Hats

Planet of Hats

Donor
JSilvy said:
Gokturk empire? Maybe the Rus conquered Iran and China.
Click to expand...
The Rus'? I could see a united Rus' conquering the Frozen North, but Persia and China? They don't have the numbers or the technology to conquer one of those powers, much less both of them and Central Asia.

My best guess is some kind of huge monster nomad confederation. If you ISOT Alexander the Great into some Kipchak khan, for example, and then just super-aggressively turbocharge him, you could end up with a sort of Kipchak-Kirghiz-Karluk-Sekiz-pan-Turkic-whatchamacallit confederation that goes on a stupid stompin'-boy rampage for a generation or so, but even then, I can't see it lasting past the life of the "great man" character.

The Kipchaks were extremely widespread at their peak - they spanned from the Carpathians to well east of the Yenisei. They'd be well-positioned to do something like this, though it'd still be a huge ridiculous wank.
 
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cmakk1012

JSilvy said:
The Turkic tribes were quite a bit of trouble for the Chinese, and many of the Turkic tribes were also a threat to the Turkic Seljuks. It's possible the two empires saw it fit to form an alliance and then formed a union at some point. Idk tho still unrealistic.
Click to expand...

It’d have to be a PoD very early in Seljuk history because they were firmly Persianized by the 13th century and saw the steppe tribes as completely foreign by then.
 

cmakk1012

JSilvy said:
It doesn't really matter if they're Persianized or not.
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It matters because it caused them to see all of the steppe nations as enemies to be conquered or defended against. Alliances with them were out of the question, especially after the Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia swore fealty to the Kipchaks.
 
water123

water123

I'm gonna actually guess it's Tangut. We all know how the Black Headed and Red Faced in the late 12th century came together and formed the second Xia state, which nearly toppled the local Chinese dynasty and expelled the Buddhists from most of the Steppes for years. I'd say that maybe they keep rolling 6's and keep conquering?
 

JSilvy

cmakk1012 said:
It matters because it caused them to see all of the steppe nations as enemies to be conquered or defended against. Alliances with them were out of the question, especially after the Bagratuni Kingdom of Armenia swore fealty to the Kipchaks.
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Exactly, in which case it would make even more sense for there to be a Sino-Seljuk alliance against the Turkic tribes.
 

cmakk1012

JSilvy said:
Exactly, in which case it would make even more sense for there to be a Sino-Seljuk alliance against the Turkic tribes.
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I misread your initial post, thought you were suggesting a Seljuk-Turkic alliance. Sorry!

As for Sino-Seljuk relations, they’d need to have a steady communication link and I somehow doubt that the steppe nations would let them have it easily. Possibly if the Seljuks had succeeded in conquering the Ferghana region in the 14th century?
 
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