DBWI: A United America

[MadMc]

with the current war between Georgia (Former colonies S. Carolina and Georgia) and Virginia (Former colonies Virginia and N. Carolina), and the scandal with the so called "President" of New York, I've been wondering about what this continent would be like if the 13 colonies did form a nation together after the American Rebellion? Could a successful government be formed between the colonies, maybe even the ability to make a country across the continent, not just forming puppet states and so-called republics to the west across the Mississippi? How would the Dominion of Canada or Mexico progress, would they be able to fight off a larger nation or still have the ability to contain the expansion west?

What do you all think?

 

[Aranfan]

Mexico would be able to put a stop to a United America that tries anything. It has an extremely powerful strategic position, and with Louisiana in the way, there's really no reason to expand further west.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

with the current war between Georgia (Former colonies S. Carolina and Georgia) and Virginia (Former colonies Virginia and N. Carolina), and the scandal with the so called "President" of New York, I've been wondering about what this continent would be like if the 13 colonies did form a nation together after the American Rebellion? Could a successful government be formed between the colonies, maybe even the ability to make a country across the continent, not just forming puppet states and so-called republics to the west across the Mississippi? How would the Dominion of Canada or Mexico progress, would they be able to fight off a larger nation or still have the ability to contain the expansion west?

What do you all think?

A United America is ASB. The Union of the Carolinas must be restored as a buffer between Georgia and Virginia. And that speech was propaganda. That New York have imperialistic ambition towards the New Jeresey- New England alliance is no secret. However Pennsylvania is guaranteeing the independence of those nations so new York don't dare attack.

 

[Anaxagoras]

If Alexander Hamilton and his Federalist cronies hadn't stolen the 1800 election during the all-too-brief Unified Period, than I think we could have had a chance at a truly unified republic. But when Hamilton persuaded John Jay to bring back the lame duck New York legislature and get it to cast its votes for Charles Pinckney, it was clear that the experiment of a genuine federation had failed. And if anyone needed proof, just look at the arrest of Jefferson and Madison a few weeks later.

 

[Hominid]

There already is a TL where America is united, although it's borderline ASB. I think the idea might work if you somehow stopped Georgia from joining. That way, Georgia could remain as its own republic and the rest of America could be successful.

As for how it would expand:

• Canada would be the most obvious option, but it would be hard to butterfly away the Meti Rebellion of 1805 that led to the modern Canadian Republic.
• If Florida had not been sold to France, it could be sold to America, although this is slightly ASB with an independent Georgia. If it did, things could get interesting with America taking over the Caribbean.
• Lastly, it could expand west into Louisiana. Maybe if we put the Louisiana Revolution in, say, 1800 instead of 1810, America could take advantage and invade. The only reason it couldn't work with the LR at its OTL time is that Spain would have time to get resources into Louisiana that prevent it.

Eventually, I suppose, America could take Georgia. But right now it's pretty much ASB.

P.S. Did anyone know that the Ottoman province of Gurjistan is properly called Georgia in English? It's the one that Russia tried to conquer in 1915, but failed. Nobody ever calls it that, though, so as not to confuse it with the Republic of Georgia in North America.

 

[GreatScottMarty]

I can tell you that the Great Lakes Republic is not, was not and will never be a puppet to any of the states on the Coast. To say so is to ignore the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ohio valley wars. As well as Fort Detroit massacre.

 

[Turiddu]

The New Jersey/New England Alliance will never fall, already I hear reports that infantry battalions are amassing on the Hudson, ready to repel invaders from Manhattan.

 

[Trovador]

The total unification is indeed hard, but a partial one isn't ASBish at all - Bolivar managed to forge Colombia, from Panama to Tierra del Fuego, out of a bunch o peoples more different than the North Americans, in a land "subject to the triple yoke of ignorance, tyranny, and vice" (his words). If the North Americans had such a powerful statesman, they could have became a united nation.

 

[MadMc]

what about the natives, would a unified america be able to remove them or wipe them out? or would they sign form protectorates and territories like OTL Virginia's Souix Confederacy and Georgia's Sequoya Territory

 

[Swan Station]

I can tell you that the Great Lakes Republic is not, was not and will never be a puppet to any of the states on the Coast. To say so is to ignore the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ohio valley wars. As well as Fort Detroit massacre.

Ha, I'd like to see those East Coasters try to tell us what to do.

Actually, the GLR, with its technological and agricultural resources, and its relatively stable government compared to the rest of the nations, might be a good starting point. If you could get a more expansionist government in Chicago sometime in the 19th century... maybe around the time of the St. Louis Civil War -- the GLR steps in to keep the Mississippi trade running more smoothly. Stronger and more common raids from the Oceti Sakowin might be enough to turn the isolationists out west in Cedar Rapids and Mendota (OOC: Minneapolist).

 

[yourworstnightmare]

The New Jersey/New England Alliance will never fall, already I hear reports that infantry battalions are amassing on the Hudson, ready to repel invaders from Manhattan.

Not to mention they are financially and technologically backed by Pennsylvania. However New York is backed by the Great Lakes Republic. All in all it will be a proxy war.

 

[MadMc]

I can tell you that the Great Lakes Republic is not, was not and will never be a puppet to any of the states on the Coast. To say so is to ignore the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ohio valley wars. As well as Fort Detroit massacre.

my mistake, of course the GLR isn't a puppet state. i meant further west like the Virginia's puppet Souix Confederacy and the tiny states on the West Coast. Those may say they're independent, but the everyone knows the nations back east are calling the shots

 

[GreatScottMarty]

Ha, I'd like to see those East Coasters try to tell us what to do.

Actually, the GLR, with its technological and agricultural resources, and its relatively stable government compared to the rest of the nations, might be a good starting point. If you could get a more expansionist government in Chicago sometime in the 19th century... maybe around the time of the St. Louis Civil War -- the GLR steps in to keep the Mississippi trade running more smoothly. Stronger and more common raids from the Oceti Sakowin might be enough to turn the isolationists out west in Cedar Rapids and Mendota (OOC: Minneapolist).

True True. Coasters ain't good for much besides putting drinks on anyway

I have to say though the villification of Hamilton is to much. Do you remeber what Jefferson was saying he was going to do? Bring us closer to France? 200 years later they are still cutting off people's heads. Say what you will about Federalism at least it was a philosophy. You would think the ST. Louis Civil War would have shown us what you get for being truely democratic.

Edit: Chicago was an excellent jumping off point for the armies into Ohio and down to St. Louis. But you have to thank the govt. for getting some sense and moving to a much more secure location in Duluth; the decision to expand north to Winnipeg and Thunder Bay and east to London was a good idea. Gave us some breathing room and territorial integrity. I will grant you that Chicago is a great place to visit.

 

[Swan Station]

Edit: Chicago was an excellent jumping off point for the armies into Ohio and down to St. Louis. But you have to thank the govt. for getting some sense and moving to a much more secure location in Duluth; the decision to expand north to Winnipeg and Thunder Bay and east to London was a good idea. Gave us some breathing room and territorial integrity. I will grant you that Chicago is a great place to visit.

Well, yes, while Chicago is a good location as a commercial center for the Southern GLR, it's a little too close to the Socialist Republic of Missouri (OOC: About the third successor state to St. Louis since their civil war), let alone Virginia, to be a safe capital. Winnipeg and Detroit are a little too close to Canada, even if we haven't had a war with them since the 1830's. Green Bay would have been a nice central location (it was the capital for a couple of years during the 3rd Ohio Valley war, when the Virginians had reached all the way to the Tippecanoe) but I think it's better to keep the nation's financial and industrial capital separate from its political capital.

But Duluth wasn't really a viable location for the capital until after the Plains Wars and the Treaty of Council Bluffs. Even then, they couldn't move it up there until a more Anglo-friendly government came to power in the Oceti Sakowin in the 1930's.

But I think, with more stability on the lower Mississippi, you would see more of the GLR commerce heading down that way instead of using the St. Lawrence route so exclusively, and Chicago would become much more important.

OOC: And here I was worried that having Iowa in the republic turned this into a Midwest-wank, and you go in and add Manitoba and west Ontario. I was going to have them lose the Plains Wars, creating a Trail of Tears where the Sioux force march white settlers from the GLR back across the Mississippi.

Still OOC: Also, as I'm having trouble envisioning how Virginia could "protect" the Sioux from so far away, especially with the GLR having such a strong influence in the north, I'm assuming that there is a separate group of Sioux that moved further southeast at some point, maybe into the Ozarks area, and that Viriginia extends to the Mississippi, south of the Ohio. This would hopefully remove the conflict with my mention of the Oceti Sakowin (see wikipedia) a post later.

 

[GreatScottMarty]

Well, yes, while Chicago is a good location as a commercial center for the Southern GLR, it's a little too close to the Socialist Republic of Missouri (OOC: About the third successor state to St. Louis since their civil war), let alone Virginia, to be a safe capital. Winnipeg and Detroit are a little too close to Canada, even if we haven't had a war with them since the 1830's. Green Bay would have been a nice central location (it was the capital for a couple of years during the 3rd Ohio Valley war, when the Virginians had reached all the way to the Tippecanoe) but I think it's better to keep the nation's financial and industrial capital separate from its political capital.

But Duluth wasn't really a viable location for the capital until after the Plains Wars and the Treaty of Council Bluffs. Even then, they couldn't move it up there until a more Anglo-friendly government came to power in the Oceti Sakowin in the 1930's.

But I think, with more stability on the lower Mississippi, you would see more of the GLR commerce heading down that way instead of using the St. Lawrence route so exclusively, and Chicago would become much more important.

OOC: And here I was worried that having Iowa in the republic turned this into a Midwest-wank, and you go in and add Manitoba and west Ontario. I was going to have them lose the Plains Wars, creating a Trail of Tears where the Sioux force march white settlers from the GLR back across the Mississippi.

Still OOC: Also, as I'm having trouble envisioning how Virginia could "protect" the Sioux from so far away, especially with the GLR having such a strong influence in the north, I'm assuming that there is a separate group of Sioux that moved further southeast at some point, maybe into the Ozarks area, and that Viriginia extends to the Mississippi, south of the Ohio. This would hopefully remove the conflict with my mention of the Oceti Sakowin (see wikipedia) a post later.

Very true. The Souix was the quite the sticky situation especially with the Virginians playing there colonial games. The way they use the Souix as puppets outrageous. I wish the GLR could get more ships on the Mississippi to control the weapons they funnel through St. Louis. I mean the tacit approval that the SRM gives Virginia is sickening, but what do you expect from Coasters and their puppets?

OOC: I imagine the GLR stretching down to the Iowa River in North Iowa and west through Indiana Illinois to OTL Cleveland and South to the Ohio River. It goes North to Winnipeg but not North of that and then East to London Ontario but that was added in the last few years. I think I am using OOC correctly.. I created the GLR in the 1st Countries of an Alternate World Thread. So the boarders are roughly those with the addition of parts of Canada

 

[MadMc]

The use of Natives by all sides during the Plains Wars, leading to massacres on all sides. Lucky for the Souix that allied with Virginia, they were given a large chunk of Arkansas, along with the Tribes from east of the Mississippi. One day maybe the Souix will be able to return to their homelands.
OOC: I saw Virginia stretching through Tennessee and Kentucky to the Mississippi

 

[King Gorilla]

T

Chicago was an excellent jumping off point for the armies into Ohio and down to St. Louis. But you have to thank the govt. for getting some sense and moving to a much more secure location in Duluth; the decision to expand north to Winnipeg and Thunder Bay and east to London was a good idea. Gave us some breathing room and territorial integrity. I will grant you that Chicago is a great place to visit.

Duluth really was more of a choice born of paranoia, after all Duluth was at the time a very minor city along the periphery of the GLR's territory. It was however faraway from any rivals which could threaten it, and a means of integrating the frontier with the core lands. The choice of Duluth would seem much more rational after the iron ore of the Mesabi was discovered allowing for it, and Superior to emerge as major industrial centers.

 

[Swan Station]

OOC: In case some people didn't get it, the Ocete Sakowin is the "Seven Council Fires" in one of the Sioux Languages, it refers to a somewhat unified collection of seven major Sioux nations. That's what I was talking about with the Sioux Confederacy separating from them.

 

[dcver]

We could probably see an increasing development of democracy in other parts of the world earlier.

 

[MadMc]

OOC: In case some people didn't get it, the Ocete Sakowin is the "Seven Council Fires" in one of the Sioux Languages, it refers to a somewhat unified collection of seven major Sioux nations. That's what I was talking about with the Sioux Confederacy separating from them.

OOC: well i guess the virginian Sioux split from them, the wiki page just redirected to a page on the Souix, didn't mention anythin unified