Das Vierte Reich: Nie und nimmer wieder!

[Korporal Nooij]

Here is a co-operated TL by me and Historybuff. In this TL, the plans of the 20 July plot will be altered slightly, and thus results in Hitlers death after all.

Chapter 1 (Situation in July 1944):

"The paths for Hitler and his legions led only to the grave." - Winston Churchill.

By July 1944, Germany is in a terrible condition. Axis forces have been pushed out of Africa in May 1943; Red Army troops are pushing through the Balkans and into eastern Germany; the Western Allies have gained a secure foothold in Normandy and the Imperial Japanese Empire, Germany's ally in the east, is collapsing.
The situation in the east is a disaster. Both for Germany and for the Soviet Union. Germany and its allies have lost at least 5 million troops in the chaos, and the Soviet Union has lost at least 9 million troops. Both sides are worn down, but Germany more-so, and although German troops were exhausted and knew that there was no more hope for them, they continued the struggle for their fatherland.
In the West, the Allies have captured Normandy, and are planning on moving further through France, and eventually into Germany. Over 600 thousand soldiers and over 95 thousand vehicles have been deployed by the United Kingdom and the United States, and these are reinforced regularly. At the same time, the Allies are in control of much of Italy, including its capital city Rome. From January to May 1944, four major offensives have been inflicted against the Germans, eventually resulting in the collapse of the so-called 'Winter Line', a line of German military fortifications situated south of Rome. This was a disaster for the German Tenth Army, which surrendered, allowing American forces to take control over Rome. The Anglo-Americans are obviously planning on continuing both northward through Italy and westward through France, while the Red Army breaks through German lines in Eastern Europe.

A group of high-ranked men in the Wehrmacht Heer, realize that something has to be done about this. Germany has to be saved, and to do that, its leader, Adolf Hitler, has to be assassinated. Hoped is that if they are able to establish a provisional government, they might be able negotiate with the Western Allies and the Soviet Union, preventing the fall of Berlin and the German Reich.

Retreating Germans on the Eastern Front.

OK, Chapter 2 is for you, Historybuff!

 

[historybuff]

As you wish Korporal.

2: Preparations.

The group of conspirators form a plan based on Operation Valkyrie: a plan to mobolize the reserve army ane diclaire a state of emergency if Hitler is killed. This plan is modified by the group, and eventually signed by Hitler himself.

The group consists of several generals, Friedrich Olbritch and Friedrich Fromm among them, as well as one Colonel Claus Von Stauffenbuurg, a war veteran from the Africa campagne with a lost hand, eye, and part of his other hand also gone. The highest ranking military member in the plot is Field Marshal Witzleben. The only known politician involved is ex-mayor Karl Goedlerr, who resigned after the destruction of a Mendalsen statue. The group decides to form a government of their own after Hitler is killed, with General Ludwig Beck as President, and Goedler as Channcelor.

Stauffenburg is promoted to chief of staff in the reserve army under Fromm.

On July 20, when Hitler and several high-ranking Nazi officials, Wilhelm Keitel among them meet in the Wolf's Lair, the resistance makes it's move.

Your turn.

 

[Korporal Nooij]

Chapter 3 (the explosion of the bomb, and the plan):

On the 20th of July, a meeting was to be held in the Wolf's Lair, East Prussia at 12:30. The date was seen by Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg and the other resistance members as the last occasion to assassinate Hitler, as they had heard rumors that the Gestapo knew about the plot. Afraid that they might be caught before a successful assault on Hitler, they decide to finish it as soon as possible.
At 12:15, Von Stauffenberg was granted 15 minutes to clean himself up, and while he was guided to the toilets by an officer, he met his plot-partner Werner von Haeften. Von Haeften had the briefcase which contained the two bombs that are to be used against Hitler with him. The two hurried to the toilets, and Von Stauffenberg was given the briefcase.
Inside the toilets, he put on a clean shirt, and at the same time, activated the bombs. With a special plier, he broke a pipe filled with sour. The sour would eventually reach a little hammer, which will then hit the igniter. This process will take 10 minutes, however, this was not guaranteed, as there are various other factors which the time depends on.

While activating the bombs, an Oberfeldwebel (sergeant) came in, to take Von Stauffenberg to the meeting, which was about to start. Von Stauffenberg, only having activated one bomb, gives the other bomb back to Von Haeften. Arriving at the meeting, Von Stauffenberg requests to be allowed to stand as close to Hitler as possible, due to hearing problems caused by the war in North Africa.
During the meeting, Von Stauffenberg puts the briefcase under the large cart-table, and pushes it a little towards Hitler. In the middle of the meeting, General-Lieutenant Adolf Heusinger came in with information about the Eastern Front. Adolf Heusinger knew about the plot, but didn't want to participate in it and didn't want to know about the details. While Adolf Heusinger told his information to Hitler and the others, Von Stauffenberg takes his chance and kicks his suitcase further under the table and closer to Hitler with his boot. The Chef of the Oberkommando of the Wehrmacht, Wilhelm Keitel suggested Von Stauffenberg to bring out a report once Heusinger was done. Hitler found this a good idea, and Von Stauffenberg, concentrating on kicking the suitcase closer to Hitler, accidentally hits Hitler's leg with his boot.

Hitler was about to take a look under the table, but Von Stauffenberg apologized quickly. Hitler turned around and continued listening to Heusinger. It was now 12:41, and Von Stauffenberg realized that he had to get out of the room as soon as possible. He tells the officer of the meeting that he has to call Berlin immediately, and he walks out the room. Wilhelm Keitel was about to go after him, but decided not to.

Von Stauffenberg passed through the hallway and went outside. He walked towards the inner control center, but then, at 12:43, he was surprised by the enormous explosion of his bomb. He ducks to the ground as several pieces of the building clash down into him. He crawls away from the explosion and is able to stand up again. He runs forward, over a field of grass and meets his plot-partner Erich Fellgiebel, whom helps him get over the terrain. The two are picked up by Von Haeften, whom is driving a borrowed car. They had to leave Rastenburg as soon as possible, before the whole place was locked up, resulting in Von Stauffenberg not participating in the coup or even the cancellation of the coup.

They pass the first two control centers without any problems. However, the third one is guarded by a Oberfeldwebel. He raised alarm and announces that no-one may leave the place. Von Stauffenberg, gets out of the car and goes inside the control post. He takes the telephone and calls the commander of Rastenburg. They know each other from the lunch earlier that day, and thus the commander allows Von Stauffenberg to leave the pass the post. The barriers were raised, and the car raced towards the airfield. Von Haeften dismantled the unused second bomb and threw it out of the car. Around 13:15, the Heinkel plane went off with Von Stauffenberg and Von Haeften aboard, back to Berlin. Von Stauffenberg, although it is not guaranteed, is pretty sure that Hitler didn't survive the explosion, and according to him, the coup has started.

On this picture you can see that Von Stauffenberg sat on a different place than OTL, and due to this, Heinz Brand, does not (accidentally) kick the suitcase behind the leg of the card-table (which was a main reason for the survival of Hitler).

Your turn, Historybuff.

 

[historybuff]

Godd Korporal.

4: Taking Action.

Stauffenburg arranges for Operation Valkyrie to be put into affect after getting back from Berlin.

Over the next few hours Nazi party members and leaders are rounded up, and imprisoned.

At 8: Hitler's death is officially confirmed.

The new government in Berrlin takes power, with Beck as President, and Goerdler as Chancellor.

Goerdler gives a speech denouncing the Nazi proppaganda against Jews, and calling on members of the Nazi army to either follow them, or still follow the 'blind ways', as he refers to Hitler's war policies.

Himler, leader of the SS, counters with his own speech, denouncing the new government, and diclairing himself Hitler's successor.

The German Civil War has begun.

Korporal, you're up.

 

[Arachnid]

Interesting, there have been a few Valkyrie tl's I wonder where you are talking this.

 

[Korporal Nooij]

Interesting, there have been a few Valkyrie tl's I wonder where you are talking this.

Thank you. I'm not sure what you meant to say exactly, but thank you very much!

Goerdler gives a speech denouncing the Nazi proppaganda against Jews, and calling on members of the Nazi army to either follow them, or still follow the 'blind ways', as he refers to Hitler's war policies.

Himler, leader of the SS, counters with his own speech, denouncing the new government, and diclairing himself Hitler's successor.

Since neither of us have my original speeches anymore, i'll create new ones.

Goerdler's speech:

'Dear German people. Your previous leader, the murderer of millions of innocent peoples, the face of national-socialism, is dead. Assassinated. Von Stauffenberg, the man that is standing right there, is responsible for this heroic action. We have taken the Reichstag and we have established a new, democratic, government. Many of you must regret the fact that you had to follow Hitler and his miserable ideas. If that is the case, then this is your chance to be forgiven by your German fatherland. We have received the critical information that Himmler has declared war upon us and is planning on attacking our own troops. We, the provisional government, ask you not to listen to the propaganda of the blind ways. Himmler has, just like Hitler did, hatred against Jews and other races. Jews are pure Germans and should not be discriminated for no reason any longer. Now, if you love your fatherland, if you love Germany, join the our new army, the German Resistance Army (Deutsche Gegenwehr), and don't listen to any of the nazist rabbles any longer. Heil Germany!'

Himmler's speech:

'Dear Waffe SS, we have received the horrible information that our great Führer, Adolf Hitler has been assassinated. Yes! Assassinated by his own men! These Jew-sympathizers have established a government to replace Hitler's. We can NOT let this country be run by Jews again! I will finish all the work that Hitler unfortunately wasn't able to do, including destroying all inferior races, conquer the Soviet Union for our precious Lebensraum, and now I also have my orders to destroy the German Resistance Army and overthrow this provisional government! The Jews have not won! Germany is far from defeated, and I'll try everything in my power to keep it standing! Now I request you, my dear SS troops, to help me in this great quest! The Jews are spreading propaganda in a desperate attempt to conquer the German people once again! Don't listen to this propaganda, and fight for your country! Fight for your fatherland! Fight for our dead hero, Adolf Hitler! Sieg Heil!'


These speeches are not part of a chapter! So i'll post the next chapter later today!

 

[marcus]

As you wish Korporal.

2: Preparations.

The group of conspirators form a plan based on Operation Valkyrie: a plan to mobolize the reserve army ane diclaire a state of emergency if Hitler is killed. This plan is modified by the group, and eventually signed by Hitler himself.

The group consists of several generals, Friedrich Olbritch and Friedrich Fromm among them, as well as one Colonel Claus Von Stauffenbuurg, a war veteran from the Africa campagne with a lost hand, eye, and part of his other hand also gone. The highest ranking military member in the plot is Field Marshal Witzleben. The only known politician involved is ex-mayor Karl Goedlerr, who resigned after the destruction of a Mendalsen statue. The group decides to form a government of their own after Hitler is killed, with General Ludwig Beck as President, and Goedler as Channcelor.

Stauffenburg is promoted to chief of staff in the reserve army under Fromm.

On July 20, when Hitler and several high-ranking Nazi officials, Wilhelm Keitel among them meet in the Wolf's Lair, the resistance makes it's move.

Your turn.

He, nice TL. But the man is called Carl Friedrich Goerdeler, and he is not the only politician. A lot of other politician, like Wilhelm Leuschner, Adolf Reichwein, Carlo Mierendorff, Julius Leber, Theodor Haubach (all SPD), Hans Lukaschek (Zentrum) and many more were involved of the plot. But go on, it looks interesting!

 

[Korporal Nooij]

Chapter 5 (Consequences of the Coup):

After the new government under Ludwig Beck and Carl Friedrich Goerdler had been established in the Reichstag in Berlin, they began spreading anti-Nazi propaganda. In Paris, General Carl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel (whom also takes part in the coup), the German military commander in France, takes control over the city, and plans on contacting the invading Western Allies and negotiate an armistice. As a result to the coup, Heinrich Himmler declares himself the successor of Hitler, and with much of the SS on his side, he declares war upon the provisional government. Hermann Wilhelm Göring, the commander of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force), seen among many offices Hitler's successor, also raises an army, and declares war upon the provisional government aswell. Himmler and Göring, although disagreeing whom should be Hitler's official successor, decide to join forces for now and destroy the provisional governments together, to protect and secure their shared ideology, Nazism.
General Friedrich Olbricht, the Minister of War of the provisional government reacts to this by creating a new army out of the over 10.000 German resistance fighters and civilians of Berlin, Paris and the surrounding territories. Many of the former Wehrmacht soldiers join the new German Resistance Army (Deutsche Gegenwehr), under General-Field Marshall Erwin von Witzleben, in which they gain the same rank as they had in the Wehrmacht, and thus also receive the same wages. An army of approximately 4 million men is quickly raised, and they are split into 20 field armies:

• The First, Second, Third and Fourth Armies, under General Friedrich Olbricht.
• The Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Armies, under General Friedrich Fromm.
• The Ninth Tenth, Eleventh and Tweltfth Armies, under General Helmuth Stieff.
• The First, Second, Third and Fourth Berlin Home Armies, under (recently promoted) General Von Stauffenberg.
• The Paris Home Army, under Carl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel
• The First, Second and Third Armored Armies, under General Erich Hoepner.
  

The First, Second and Third Armies, under General Olbricht, is send to capture concentration camp Sachsenhausen, 35 kilometers (21 miles) north of Berlin at 18:49 that day (July 21), while the Third, Fourth and Fifth Armies are send to take over the SS Führungshauptamt (the SS headquarters) in Berlin. In Sachsenhausen, the SS Sturmbannführer (Assault Unit Leader) of the camp, Anton Kaidl, although unprepared, is alarmed by the approaching divisions, and immediately calls the Berlin headquarters to request reinforcements.
Before SS-Obergruppenführer Hans Jüttner, the chief of the Berlin headquarters, was able to answer, the headquarters are put under siege by artillery. A line of appr. 25 captured 3.7 cm FlaK 43s are deployed in front of the building, and at 22:57 they begin firing. 1/3rd of the approximately 4 thousand employees get out of the building as soon as possible, surrendering, while the other third, including Jüttner, gets out of the building shooting at the soldiers, and the last third are casualties. The German Resistance Army wins this battle, taking around 2,200 men prisoner, including Hans Jüttner, and the SS-Führungshauptamt is burned to the ground. Sachsenhausen is captured by the Army, and the approximately 40,000 inmates are released. Anton Kaidl is captured and send to Berlin for interrogation.

 

[historybuff]

Very good. Amazing section BTW.

6: Reactions.

When word of the coup and civil war reached the allies, they were stunned. Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill knew from their sources that there was an anti-Nazi movement in Germany, but believed it would never be able to strike. Now that it had, they were in a bind over what to do. The Americans and British wished to send aid to the new government, while France did little other than wait.

Stalin and the Politburo voted to have their troops in Germany aid the German Resistance Army, and would wait to see what Goerdler's government would do next if they won the war.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The German resistance was still very conservative and would ask for terms, which the allies would refuse. They wanted unconditional surrender and think that the true powers behind the throne, those that used the Nazis as their front (an incorrect assumption of course, but nonetheless widely help belief in the allied camp), were trying to cut a deal. They wanted to crush Germany, not just the Nazis. So don't expect the war to suddenly stop. We've gone over this kind of POD multiple times on the forum and have come to the conclusion that unconditional surrender was the only end to the war, which the coupists would likely not accept. It would change how the Germans viewed themselves post war and probably would cause a surrender earlier, but it won't stop the Allies from occupying Germany by force.

 

[Eurofed]

The German resistance was still very conservative and would ask for terms, which the allies would refuse. They wanted unconditional surrender and think that the true powers behind the throne, those that used the Nazis as their front (an incorrect assumption of course, but nonetheless widely help belief in the allied camp), were trying to cut a deal. They wanted to crush Germany, not just the Nazis. So don't expect the war to suddenly stop. We've gone over this kind of POD multiple times on the forum and have come to the conclusion that unconditional surrender was the only end to the war, which the coupists would likely not accept. It would change how the Germans viewed themselves post war and probably would cause a surrender earlier, but it won't stop the Allies from occupying Germany by force.

This is mostly true, in the sense that successful anti-Nazi plotters would not have the military resources to make Britain and America bleed and toil enough to make them break their committment to de jure "unconditional surrender", which in practice means that Allied occupation could not be avoided.

It wholly stands to reason, however, that a post-Nazi Germany could aim, by a careful hoarding of residual military resources and going quite public with moderate requests for peace, to achieve a de facto conditional surrender, the same deal that OTL Japan took. In other words, a surrender tempered by public pledges by Western Allies about the preservation of the national integrity and unity of Germany in post-Anschluss 1938 borders (although the Sudetenland and East Prussia, for various reasons, were lost to the German people), no occupation by Soviet troops, and eventual return of Germany to democracy and independence when Denazification was accomplished. Japan got it, certainly America had more reason to hate Japan than it did Germany, and the Japanese people never did anything remotely so radical to show a changed heart about its past course as overthrowing its militarist regime by coup. Such a public request by post-Nazi Germany would inevitably win the favor of the British and American peoples, rather than continuing the war to the bitter end for no better reason than inflicting an inhuman peace on the German people.

Stalin could be dealt with by concentrating residual German military resources to make a last stand on the Eastern front once the Western Allies accepted such a peace, stalemating the Red Army and ceasing any resistance on the Wester one until the Anglo-Americans reached the Eastern front, disarmed the surviving German soldiers, and took their place. Stalin would rage and fume, but in the end would have to other course than to accept the principle that "everyone kept what he conquered". Certainly shortening the war in Europe by the good part of a war would freed up abundant American resources to defeat Japan without any need of costly Soviet assistance.

Churchill could be win over to such a peace deal, Roosevelt would be eventually forced to by overwhelming political pressure or he would lose the 1944 election to a "peace Republican" that would argue in favor of "giving Germany a honorable and humane peace in order to ending thre war in Europe faster and focus on finishing the job with Japan". Very few British and Americans would be willing to let their sons die in order to implement Plan Morgenthau, aggrandize Poland with lands it never owned the last millennium, forcibly restore Austria, or give Stalin an empire in Central Europe.

Even if the German Resistance would indeed start the negotations with the Western Allies asking for better terms than the above, which would be indeed refused, they were not madmen like Hitler, they would soon realize the inevitable and scale down their demands.

 

[Eurofed]

I only have a serious criticism to make on the TL so far. Precisely to give themselves some political legitimacy, and in order to deprive Nazi diehards of an excuse to launch a civil war, the Valkyrie plotters did not plan to go out in the open and start adimitting that they assassinated Hitler. Rather, they planned to declare (and indeed IOTL did so when it still seemed that Hitler had died) that Hitler had been assassinated by Nazi radicals. This would have given them a good legal and political excuse to seize power in the face of the German people, and would have given them a very good argument to get the allegiance of apolitical patriotic Germans (most importantly the Wehrmacht officer corps at large, including the fence-sitters, leaning on their side now that Hitler was dead and freed them from theri personal oath of allegiance) and even moderate Nazis (most importantly the bulk of the Waffen-SS, which IOTL stood down when it seemed Hitler had died). This would have deprived Himmler & co. the resources to start any kind of civil war, an issue they were quite anxious to settle, with Germany at war.

At first, they would have presented themselves as moderate patrotic Germans, acting in defense of the Fatherland against the treachery of the radical Nazi. Only in the following days and weeks, they would have started to take an openly anti-Nazi stance, using the notion that the Nazi regime had fallen to internecine fighting, growing evidence released by them about its corruption and abuses against the German people to justify their shift.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

It wholly stands to reason, however, that a post-Nazi Germany could aim, by a careful hoarding of residual military resources and going quite public with moderate requests for peace, to achieve a de facto conditional surrender, the same deal that OTL Japan took. In other words, a surrender tempered by public pledges by Western Allies about the preservation of the national integrity and unity of Germany in post-Anschluss 1938 borders (although the Sudetenland and East Prussia, for various reasons, were lost to the German people), no occupation by Soviet troops, and eventual return of Germany to democracy and independence when Denazification was accomplished. Japan got it, certainly America had more reason to hate Japan than it did Germany, and the Japanese people never did anything remotely so radical to show a changed heart about its past course as overthrowing its militarist regime by coup. Such a public request by post-Nazi Germany would inevitably win the favor of the British and American peoples, rather than continuing the war to the bitter end for no better reason than inflicting an inhuman peace on the German people.

Stalin could be dealt with by concentrating residual German military resources to make a last stand on the Eastern front once the Western Allies accepted such a peace, stalemating the Red Army and ceasing any resistance on the Wester one until the Anglo-Americans reached the Eastern front, disarmed the surviving German soldiers, and took their place. Stalin would rage and fume, but in the end would have to other course than to accept the principle that "everyone kept what he conquered". Certainly shortening the war in Europe by the good part of a war would freed up abundant American resources to defeat Japan without any need of costly Soviet assistance.

Churchill could be win over to such a peace deal, Roosevelt would be eventually forced to by overwhelming political pressure or he would lose the 1944 election to a "peace Republican" that would argue in favor of "giving Germany a honorable and humane peace in order to ending thre war in Europe faster and focus on finishing the job with Japan". Very few British and Americans would be willing to let their sons die in order to implement Plan Morgenthau, aggrandize Poland with lands it never owned the last millennium, forcibly restore Austria, or give Stalin an empire in Central Europe.

Even if the German Resistance would indeed start the negotations with the Western Allies asking for better terms than the above, which would be indeed refused, they were not madmen like Hitler, they would soon realize the inevitable and scale down their demands.

There is simply no way to avoid occupation by the Soviets. Even with the most ASB defense the Germans keep the Soviets out of Germany, the Western Allies will give them their zone because they needed Stalin to attack Japan. It was simply politics. No one trusted the Germans at this point nor would cut a deal. Even Austria is too much for the Allies to let them have. Now, if they surrendered before the Soviets had overrun Prussia, as I assume they might, because frankly at this point the end is not in doubt. I'm sure they could try to negotiate for a better deal, which they might get, but that deal is going to be very very weak. Perhaps they keep some more land in the East, but they will have at best 1937 borders. Probably not even that. I expect East Prussia to be gone, but perhaps not much more. Also, if they are lucky, perhaps the Allies allow the Germans to keep a central government, which substantially changes the occupation. France will probably get some goodies, but not as many as historically, as they will not have contributed as much to deserve it.

Honestly I doubt Churchill and Roosevelt can deny a deal whereby the Germans submit to an occupation, give up all their gains, turn in all war criminals, and all this without having to spend lives clearing out Europe inch by inch. Minor concessions would of course be given, but at this point, all sides want the hemorrhaging to stop. The Western Allies want a reasonably strong German to counter the Soviets in the aftermath of the war, Germany doesn't want to fight to the bitter end (fanatics aside). The Germans will just have to accept that the Soviets will occupy parts of Germany. But without the war going on, I doubt the occupation would be as brutal as what happened during the war. Still barbaric, considering what happened after the war ended OTL, but not as bad. Besides, the Wehrmacht realized it was only a matter of time before the Soviets forced their way into Germany as it was; would another year of killing and dying be worth delaying the inevitable?

 

[tantalus1970a]

No one trusted the Germans at this point nor would cut a deal.

This is the key point.

It's called World War TWO for a reason! In 1940, Germany invaded France for the third time in 70 years. Plus, they'd bombed almost every city in Britain, including N Ireland and Scotland. By 1944, it's far too late for them to be listened to.

The idea of using the Germans as a bulwark against the Soviets in 1944 would go down like a lead balloon in the UK. The Soviets were not regarded by ordinary people as the threat they became in the Cold War. Plus, any government that goes back on its alliance (however thin) with the Soviets to side with the Germans will never be trusted again. By anyone.

There's no reason for the Western Allies to agree to basically help defend Germany against the Soviets. If the Germans demand that the Soviets be kept out of their territory, all the Allies have to say in response is: 'What are you going to do if we say no?' and sit still, watching the Germans start to panic.

The other problem with a successful assassination and coup is that it creates another stab-in-the-back myth for the Nazis and their fellow travellers, of which there were FAR more than people like to admit after the fact, thus making post-war politics in Germany difficult to say the least!

This is the third thread I've read in as many days about a German army coup against Hitler. At least this one didn't have Rommel as head of state.

 

[The Kiat]

One problem I've always had with this bomb plot: what do the plotters do about the SS? I doubt they will go along so easily.

 

[ComradeTovarich]

This is the third thread I've read in as many days about a German army coup against Hitler. At least this one didn't have Rommel as head of state.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to Rommel?

 

[Mulder]

In 1940, Germany invaded France for the third time in 70 years.

History: FAIL! Do you know anything at all about the Franco-Prussian war? Like, who tried to invade whom and failed miserably?

 

[tantalus1970a]

History: FAIL! Do you know anything at all about the Franco-Prussian war? Like, who tried to invade whom and failed miserably?

Fair point. Getting a bit carried away there.

But the basic point is still valid. No-one trusts the Germans in 1944. Certainly not the Danes, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, French and Yugoslavs, all of whom were invaded by the German ARMY, all apart from the French without official warning or I think declarations of war.

All the German military plans of WW2 were drawn up by the Wehrmacht on Hitler's instructions. And by 1944, the Allies are well aware of how much blood the regular German army has on its hands.

A couple of people are bending over backwards to create scenarios where the Wehrmacht survives as a major fighting force, sometimes allied with the West against the Soviets. I just find that really dodgy!

 

[tantalus1970a]

Speaking of which, whatever happened to Rommel?

He used to talk with his aides about going into civil engineering after the war. He was a big fan of Der Tunnel, which was a book then a film about a tunnel under the Atlantic between Europe and the US (it was written before the theory of plate tectonics was accepted; basically the ocean floors are not permanent the way the continental crusts are, so no tunnel)

Maybe he could have got a job building the Channel Tunnel. I can just imagine the jokes in the British press about Rommel digging his way into England!

 

[Eurofed]

There is simply no way to avoid occupation by the Soviets. Even with the most ASB defense the Germans keep the Soviets out of Germany, the Western Allies will give them their zone because they needed Stalin to attack Japan.

No. If the Western Allies can cut a deal with the Valkyrie junta, the war in Europe can end many months in advance, and the WA can spare a hulluva lot of military assets they can use to level Japan. They have no need to bargain for Stalin's costly and harmful "assistance". And Joe is going to invade Manchuria at first opportunity for his own gain anyway.

Even Austria is too much for the Allies to let them have.

At most, I can see the Allies treating Austria just like they did Saar. A provisional status for a while, then a referendum to ascertain the democratic will of Austrian people about union with Germany. There is nothing really special about Austria, in ocmparison to say, Bavaria.

Now, if they surrendered before the Soviets had overrun Prussia, as I assume they might, because frankly at this point the end is not in doubt. I'm sure they could try to negotiate for a better deal, which they might get, but that deal is going to be very very weak. Perhaps they keep some more land in the East, but they will have at best 1937 borders. Probably not even that. I expect East Prussia to be gone, but perhaps not much more.

I, too, expect, East Prussia to be lost to the German nation for various reasons, but nothing more than that. They would certainly keep the 1937 borders. Pretty much no one in Britain and America was willing to let more of ther boys die in order to aggrandize Poland with territory it had no plausible claim to.

Honestly I doubt Churchill and Roosevelt can deny a deal whereby the Germans submit to an occupation, give up all their gains, turn in all war criminals, and all this without having to spend lives clearing out Europe inch by inch. Minor concessions would of course be given, but at this point, all sides want the hemorrhaging to stop. The Western Allies want a reasonably strong German to counter the Soviets in the aftermath of the war, Germany doesn't want to fight to the bitter end (fanatics aside).

This is exactly my point. I only stand that the reasonable deal fro Germany would be the 1938 borders (with perhaps a referendum for Saar and Austria) minus East Prussia (which would be overrun by the Soviets and ethnically purged as Stalin's "gift" to his new Polish vassal anyway).

The Germans will just have to accept that the Soviets will occupy parts of Germany. But without the war going on, I doubt the occupation would be as brutal as what happened during the war. Still barbaric, considering what happened after the war ended OTL, but not as bad. Besides, the Wehrmacht realized it was only a matter of time before the Soviets forced their way into Germany as it was; would another year of killing and dying be worth delaying the inevitable?

Again, if Germany surrenders early, the Western Allies can spare a truckload of assets for Japan. They don't need Soviet help, the Germans make lack of Soviet occupation a term of their surrender, the WA have no motive to let the Soviet occupy what they never conquered. Stalin already got his sizable empire, err.. "security zone" in Eastern Europe.