Dark Age Europe split between Arianism and Catholicism

acgoldis

Hi!

I was reading a book on the Dark Ages and saw something which indicated that most of the influential barbarian kingdoms became Catholic (as opposed to Arian) because several of the kings' wives happened to be devout Christians. I believe Britain, Gaul, and a couple of other territories were in this situation.

Suppose some of these women were slightly less devout in their Catholicism or were intrigued by Arianism. As a result, half of the kingdoms (say Gaul and Britain) adopt Arianism and others (Spain and the fourth kingdom -- I can't remember which one it was) adopt Catholicism. How would this have changed things?

The first things I can think of would be the fact that the Pope wouldn't be nearly as central an authority figure as he was in OTL. He couldn't simply outlaw Arianism with half of Europe Arian -- given all the chaos at the time (maybe AD 500-700), he could easily find himself under attack by the Lombards, Ostrogoths, Gauls or whichever group wound up the "heretics". Europe could have also become an easier target for the Muslims if they were busy fighting among themselves.

Furthermore, the book claims that Christianity helped "civilize" the barbarian tribes. The Arian and Catholic "civilizations" could have developed slightly differently.

Any ideas?

ACG
 

Nikephoros

Banned
The Visigoths and the Vandals both converted to Arian Christianity, but they eventually ruled over majority Catholic populations.

The Franks converted to Catholicism.

Britain certainly would not become Arian, Arianism usually found followers amongst the German tribes.
 

Promethean

Nikephoros said:
The Visigoths and the Vandals both converted to Arian Christianity, but they eventually ruled over majority Catholic populations.

The Franks converted to Catholicism.

Britain certainly would not become Arian, Arianism usually found followers amongst the German tribes.
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Saxons are Germans to you know, or are you one of those people who always think that brittain was a fortress of civilisation, etcetra, against the barbarian hordes, etcetra, etcetra...
 

Emperor Qianlong

Nikephoros said:
The Visigoths and the Vandals both converted to Arian Christianity, but they eventually ruled over majority Catholic populations.

The Franks converted to Catholicism.

Britain certainly would not become Arian, Arianism usually found followers amongst the German tribes.
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Germanic tribes! There were no Germans back then yet! :p

Plus, Promethean is correct, the Anglo-Saxons were as Germanic as the Franks or the Visigoths... :)
 

Stephen

Banned
But when the Saxons took over England they were still pagan. And misionaries did not have any success with the Saxons until Arianism was already extinct.
 

Susano

Banned
Stephen said:
But when the Saxons took over England they were still pagan. And misionaries did not have any success with the Saxons until Arianism was already extinct.
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Same counts for the Franks, though who took over Northern Gaul as pagans and then diruectly converted to Catholicism...
 

Nikephoros

Banned
As for Anglo-Saxons being Germanic, I am well aware of that.

But they certainly became Christian after Arianism died out.

What I meant when I said that Arianism mostly found favor amongst groups such as the Goths and Vandals is that it never caught on amongst the Romans
 

chunkeymonkey13q

As Nikephoros pointed out, the main problem with this is that while various Germanic tribes such as the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals and a few others were in fact Arian, their subject populations, the "Romans," were not, and it is they who made up the majority of the population. It is possible that the Clovis of the Franks could have converted directly to Arianism instead of to Catholicism I suppose, however, that would not remove the problem of the majority of the population being Catholic.

I think a better Point of Divergence if you want to achieve the result you outlined is to have Arianism more prevalent amongst the Germans AND the Romans. Otherwise, you will simply have officially Arian Kingdoms eventually converting as did the Visigoths in our timeline.
 

acgoldis

How about this POD? I can't remember when Arianism first popped up, but the earlier the better.

The Huns or Avars or whoever the enemy of the week invades Germania. The emperor (western or eastern -- eastern is OK as long as religious customs can still cross over) or Roman military leader runs up there and tries to hire one of the Germanic barbarian tribes to help him beat up on this foe. The Germanic tribe is led by King Generic, a devout Arian.

The Roman/German combined force adopts Generic's tactics and beats the bleep out of the Enemy of the Week. The emperor asks Generic how he knew he'd win.

Generic responds: "I'm a Christian"
Emperor: "So? I'm a Christian too and we haven't had much luck up here".
Generic: "I'm an Arian. You?"
Emperor: "No, I'm Catholic. I'm not all that familiar with Arian Christianity. From what I know, it's about half-right"
Generic: "That's why you half-won"
Emperor: "D'OH! All right, teach me."

Generic teachers the emperor Arianism. The emperor buys it and then hurries off somewhere to face the next battle. He wins (he uses Generic's tactics which actually causes him to win and the other tribe is a bit disorganized). He attributes it to Arianism and he's sold.

He returns to Rome and tells all of the legions to adopt Arianism. He tries to mollify the rest of the people by saying that Arianism is another alternative they can adopt for their Christian beliefs -- the prior one isn't bad, but this one is better. He himself converts to Arianism to set an example.

The soldiers take Arianism all over the Empire. They engage in their first battle. Half of these legions win and stay Arian, converting their territories to Arianism. The other half lose and switch back to Catholicism. Various regions then adopt either Arianism or Catholicism.

And somewhere along the line, an Arian becomes Pope/Bishop of Rome (either as a reward for valor in battle or because he is a religious scholar). Generic's spiritual advisor could very well wind up this bishop. Once we've got an Arian pope things get interesting.

ACG
 

Nikephoros

Banned
acgoldis said:
snip
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To be honest, I couldn't see an Emperor ditching Catholic Christianity in favor of the relatively small sect of Arianism. I imagine that the Empire's population would find a way to get rid of such an Emperor.

However, I think that Arianism might predate Constantine's (and his successors) conversion of the Empire.

If so, maybe find a way for the Western Half (which is more pagan than the East) to adopt Arianism, and for the East to develop a very similar Christianity to Catholicism.

Not sure if that would be enough, but it might provide a Europe split between Arian and *Chalcedonian* (Catholic) Christianity.
 

acgoldis

"However, I think that Arianism might predate Constantine's (and his successors) conversion of the Empire.

If so, maybe find a way for the Western Half (which is more pagan than the East) to adopt Arianism, and for the East to develop a very similar Christianity to Catholicism."
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How about one of these.

1. Constantine converts to Arianism under pagan influence when he Christianizes the Empire. Later on, between Constantine and the end of the Western Empire, one of the Eastern Emperors/leaders decides that the problems in the Western Empire are not because Constantine is a Christian but because he's an Arian. He decides to convert to Catholicism, finds that his half of the empire is doing better, and figures Catholicism is it. There are 100 years or so for the two sects to mingle before Roman authority in the west finally collapses. Note that this will likely result in an Arian pope.

2. Constantine converts to Catholicism as in OTL to follow the majority of his citizens. The western Empire gets attacked a lot and that convinces leaders in the east to adopt Arianism.

3. Constantine adopts Christianity but recognizes that there are two legitimate sects as far as he is concerned, Catholicism and Arianism. He doesn't want to alienate anyone and doesn't want to dismiss anything which seems to be a valid way to worship the Lord. So, he converts to Catholicism and installs an Arian leader as Bishop of Rome as a spiritual advisor (or vice versa). This gives worshipers of both sects a mentor and supporter. Other sects are outlawed.

4. Constantine adopts Catholicism but one of his immediate successors figures Arianism is better and is able to catch the tail end of the Christianization process.

5. The Tetrarchy lasts longer and the two halves of the empire choose different sects.

6. The Tetrarchy lasts longer and someone makes a rule that the Augustus and Caesar be of different denominations (they alternate).

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here :)

ACG
 

abas

Nikephoros said:
To be honest, I couldn't see an Emperor ditching Catholic Christianity in favor of the relatively small sect of Arianism. I imagine that the Empire's population would find a way to get rid of such an Emperor.

However, I think that Arianism might predate Constantine's (and his successors) conversion of the Empire.

If so, maybe find a way for the Western Half (which is more pagan than the East) to adopt Arianism, and for the East to develop a very similar Christianity to Catholicism.

Not sure if that would be enough, but it might provide a Europe split between Arian and *Chalcedonian* (Catholic) Christianity.
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Actually, in time when Germanic tribes converted to Christianity, Arianism was official doctrine in the Empire.
 

abas

acgoldis said:
4. Constantine adopts Catholicism but one of his immediate successors figures Arianism is better and is able to catch the tail end of the Christianization process.
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That was Constantius II, he was Emperor, when Goths adopted Arianism.
 

Tomac

acgoldis said:
2. Constantine converts to Catholicism as in OTL to follow the majority of his citizens. The western Empire gets attacked a lot and that convinces leaders in the east to adopt Arianism.
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The only problem that I have with this is the fact that Constantine really didn't convert to Catholicism until his was on his deathbed, a couple of days before he actually died. All he did do was to legalize the religion, and end the persecution.
 

acgoldis

Tomac said:
The only problem that I have with this is the fact that Constantine really didn't convert to Catholicism until his was on his deathbed, a couple of days before he actually died. All he did do was to legalize the religion, and end the persecution.
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Simply legalizing the religion will help a lot -- note that this legalization probably covered both sects so both of them will continue to spread throughout the empire. If the next emperor is Catholic (wasn't there an important Catholic emperor shortly after him?) and the country is attacked, the eastern emperor can adopt the other position. If the next emperor chooses Arian and the country is attacked, the eastern emperor chooses Catholicism and attributes the relative peace of the eastern empire to God telling him he did the right thing.
 

acgoldis

Ideally, we'd want Arianism and Catholicism spread throughout Europe by the time the Dark Ages start so you can have Arian Popes, lots of Arian countries, and so forth. There was an argument that the best way to do this would be for Rome to promote both sects while it was still in charge, and one of the options for this would be to the western empire Arian and one Catholic.
 
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