Dalmatia Ascendant

[Ilúphatar]

This will be a TL primarily concerned with the rise of the Dalmatian city of Zara (modern Zadar, Croatia) to a status rivalling the power of the Italian maritime republics of Venice and Genoa. It was inspired by the following two threads:

• https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/ahc-dalmatia-wank.407369/
• https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...a-with-their-rival-maritime-republics.407038/

This is my first TL, so advice, comments and constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. While I have a great interest in history in general, and also specifically in the maritime republics, my knowledge of the Balkans in particular is regretfully lacking. Hopefully, this will be as much an educational experience for me as (with luck) an enjoyable experience for you!

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'The failure of the attempted Crusade of 1202 has been a subject of some controversy in the ages since the 13th century. The inability of the Crusader army to even leave Venice, let alone reach their Egyptian target, has variously been blamed upon the Venetians, the Papacy, and Boniface of Montferrat, to give just three examples.

However, the most widely accepted theory today is that which lays the blame at the door of Pope Innocent III himself – the very instigator and organiser of the expedition. It is he who is blamed for the abandonment of the Crusade of 1202 through his refusal to permit the much-vaunted Venetian proposal to attack the city of Zara. His letters threatening the excommunication of the entire expedition, when made common knowledge (most probably through the machinations of Simon de Montfort), led to widespread mutiny and insurrection in the Crusading army encamped upon the Isle of Lido. The subsequent schism within the army and the public denouncement of the Venetian Doge, Enrico Dandolo, by de Montfort, led to the complete collapse of the Crusade and the greatest humiliation of the Republic of Venice since the Byzantine dethronement of the Doge in 807AD.

In any case, the forestallment of the proposed attack on Zara was beyond doubt a turning point in Mediterranean history. Had the expedition to Dalmatia gone ahead, it is doubtful that the Zaratins could have repelled a joint Venetian-Crusader siege. It is even possible that the ambitions of Venice towards the Dalmatian cities could have been realised in their entirety, and that the rise of Zara and Ragusa to their positions at the head of Adriatic geopolitics may have been prevented.'

Extract from - Zara: A Study in Dalmatian History​

 

[MakiRoc]

More posts please.

As a firm believer that Zara (with some more luck) could have achieved much more then in OTL, I'm anxiously waiting to see how this unravels.

 

[DominusNovus]

I'm personally hopeful this would mean a surviving Romance Dalmatian language.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Oh, I'm following this.

 

[MakiRoc]

I'm personally hopeful this would mean a surviving Romance Dalmatian language.

Dalmatian language is a must.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Dalmatian language is a must.

Definitely!

 

[corourke]

I'll be following this!

 

[Ilúphatar]

Interest? What kind of sorcery is this!

Anyway, I am working on the next post now. Should be up tomorrow, if not before.

Any input will be gratefully appreciated!

 

[Deleted member 97083]

There should be a "final battle" of sorts between Zadar and Ragusa when both of them are powerful.

 

[General Ripper]

Dalmatian language is a must.

Sorry, I think that by the POD, as I see it, Dalmatian language is allmost impossible to revive ( to become a dominant language there ). Zadar and other Dalmatian cities at the time were allready mostly Slavicised/Croatised.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Sorry, I think that by the POD, as I see it, Dalmatian language is allmost impossible to revive ( to become a dominant language there ). Zadar and other Dalmatian cities at the time were allready mostly Slavicised/Croatised.

Well, they could bring in settlers from the Croatian islands, where the Dalmatian language was still alive. If it happens early and they form a large part of the population of Zadar, the Dalmatian language might have a chance.

 

[General Ripper]

Well, they could bring in settlers from the Croatian islands, where the Dalmatian language was still alive. If it happens early and they form a large part of the population of Zadar, the Dalmatian language might have a chance.

Maybe, but if the author thinks that Dalmatia will be ascendant enough to confront Venice, she will have to have all hinterland, and in hinterland nobody speaks Dalmatian language. Also, hinterland is much more populated than islands.

As a note, in 1177 Pope Alexander III visited Zadar. It was greeted by population singing "laudes and songs in their, Slavic, language". Written by Cardinal Boso.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boso_Breakspeare

 

[MakiRoc]

Sorry, I think that by the POD, as I see it, Dalmatian language is allmost impossible to revive ( to become a dominant language there ). Zadar and other Dalmatian cities at the time were allready mostly Slavicised/Croatised.

No, Dalmatian was still spoken in Zadar even in the 14th century. In Ragusa even later (as an official language). Here is a link to a Croatian article:

https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNGW3jCZgwoGpxUMa1hyf1RvidRmvA&cad=rja

Despite it being written in Croatian, you can go to page 415 where you have a letter in Dalmatian from the Zaratin patrician Todre de Fomat to the Ragusan cançiler Pono de Stambert. On page 418, 419 and 422 you have inventory lists and wills written in Dalmatian.
Many in the cities were bilingual (a necessity if you want to do business in the hinterland, which was their main market), but Dalmatian was still alive and kicking. According to the article above, the use of Zaratin Dalmatian peaked during the 14th century in personal and official documents. It was latter quickly replaced by Venetian when most of Dalmatia fell under Venetian rule.

Maybe, but if the author thinks that Dalmatia will be ascendant enough to confront Venice, she will have to have all hinterland, and in hinterland nobody speaks Dalmatian language. Also, hinterland is much more populated than islands.

As a note, in 1177 Pope Alexander III visited Zadar. It was greeted by population singing "laudes and songs in their, Slavic, language". Written by Cardinal Boso.

Ever been to the Dalmatian hinterland? Even today the difference in development is big. Now imagine how it was back in the 13th or 14th century. On one side you have mostly poorly developed villages, a fortress here and there for your local magnate and very few towns of great significance. On the other hand you have these heavily fortified Latin cities with ports, churches, monasteries, cathedrals, courthouses, markets, orthogonal street grids..etc. Zadar/Zara had the first university in south east Europe (1396). I think it would not be a stretch for the hinterland to gradually romanize if the Dalmatian cites stay strong. Without Venice to strangle their autonomy and implement segregationist policies, things could have gone differently.

Regarding Pope Alexander III's visit to Zadar, Cardinal Boso did write that the people sang in "Slavica lingua". Never found anything more detailed about that event. I presume Zadar/Zara had a significant Croat presence, but I wouldn't say it was mostly Slavicised/Croatised. I have no idea were these people citizens of the city, Croats from the hinterland selling goods in the city, Croatian clerics or pilgrims...etc. Don't even know if Boso used the right term for the language he heard and didn't understand. Foreigners usually mixed up the terms Croatian, Illyrian, Dalmatian & Slavic.

 

[corourke]

I'd like to see a Slavic Mediterranean power

 

[General Ripper]

No, Dalmatian was still spoken in Zadar even in the 14th century. In Ragusa even later (as an official language). Here is a link to a Croatian article:

https://www.google.hr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwiCtNLd7b7RAhWGvhQKHUV2BjMQFghBMAQ&url=http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/77964&usg=AFQjCNGW3jCZgwoGpxUMa1hyf1RvidRmvA&cad=rja

Despite it being written in Croatian, you can go to page 415 where you have a letter in Dalmatian from the Zaratin patrician Todre de Fomat to the Ragusan cançiler Pono de Stambert. On page 418, 419 and 422 you have inventory lists and wills written in Dalmatian.
Many in the cities were bilingual (a necessity if you want to do business in the hinterland, which was their main market), but Dalmatian was still alive and kicking. According to the article above, the use of Zaratin Dalmatian peaked during the 14th century in personal and official documents. It was latter quickly replaced by Venetian when most of Dalmatia fell under Venetian rule.




Ever been to the Dalmatian hinterland? Even today the difference in development is big. Now imagine how it was back in the 13th or 14th century. On one side you have mostly poorly developed villages, a fortress here and there for your local magnate and very few towns of great significance. On the other hand you have these heavily fortified Latin cities with ports, churches, monasteries, cathedrals, courthouses, markets, orthogonal street grids..etc. Zadar/Zara had the first university in south east Europe (1396). I think it would not be a stretch for the hinterland to gradually romanize if the Dalmatian cites stay strong. Without Venice to strangle their autonomy and implement segregationist policies, things could have gone differently.

Regarding Pope Alexander III's visit to Zadar, Cardinal Boso did write that the people sang in "Slavica lingua". Never found anything more detailed about that event. I presume Zadar/Zara had a significant Croat presence, but I wouldn't say it was mostly Slavicised/Croatised. I have no idea were these people citizens of the city, Croats from the hinterland selling goods in the city, Croatian clerics or pilgrims...etc. Don't even know if Boso used the right term for the language he heard and didn't understand. Foreigners usually mixed up the terms Croatian, Illyrian, Dalmatian & Slavic.

I actually live there, so I know that very well.

Have you even read that article?

It says that the most of population in Zadar spoke Slavic/Croatian language, high society used Latin ( as everywhere at the time ) and Dalmatian was used as "middle language". And all of them more-less at least understood Croatian/Slavic. Venetians also did make Croatian/Slavic version of terms of surrender for Zadar in 1346, after more than 150 years of Venetian rule there. ( p. 413, look at footnotes, also p. 424 ) )

Your'e mixing OTL with Venetian rule of 150 yars ( 1202 to 1358 ) and later 400 years ( after 1408 ) with TTL, where Venetian rule from 1202 simply isn't there. And even in OTL, 550+ years of Venetian allmost constant rule over Dalmatia didn't make majority ( not even a significant number ) of population speak Italian/Venetian.

So, IMHO, the example of how Romanic Dalmatian language will develop isn't OTL Zadar- it's OTL Dubrovnik Republic. Of course that some part of them used Latin ( and even Romanic language ) for long, but their culture and language is basicly Croatian/Slavic. Mind you, role of Dalmatian language was increased/boosted with 550+ years of allmost continous Venetian rule in Zadar/Dalmatia. ITTL there's no such rule. Of course, people in Zadar/Dalmatia will know Italian very well ( because of trade with Italy ), educated class will know Latin too, but the vast majority of population will speak Croatian in their daily life.

About Cardinal Boso, so you think that Cardinal of Holy Catholic Church ( who probably knew Latin and Italian perfectly )- born in Italy would not be able to see the difference between Latin language, Italian/Romanic Dalmatian language or Slavic/Croatian language?

 

[Whiteshore]

How will the ERE fare with no 4th Crusade?

 

[General Ripper]

How will the ERE fare with no 4th Crusade?

That's an interesting question.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

How will the ERE fare with no 4th Crusade?

Frankly, I expect that there would be a usurpation of the ERE by someone more capable - it may be the Komnenoi, Laskarids or Paleologos that do so, but any of those families would be a step above the Angeloi. That should be enough to ensure the ERE faces a better trajectory ITTL. If the new ruling family does so quickly, and it reassesses itself strategically, it should be able to halt the Seljuk Sultanate - and perhaps even turn it back if the PoD doesn't butterfly the inheritance problems Rum had IOTL. If the ERE can exploit that window of instability, unlike Nicaea IOTL - then we've got a good chance of the ERE being around much longer. - I personally would vote Komnenoi as Emperors as it could be the beginnings of an antidote against usurpation.

I also like the idea of the ERE becoming a long-term friend of Zara/Dalmatia. They'd be preferable to control trade than any Italian powers, and if they pick up any strength, the ERE and Dalmatia would benefit from an alliance against Serbia, Bulgaria, Hungary. In the longest term - they'd make good geopolitical partners. Dalmatia as a wealthy buffer-state ally between the HRE and ERE is good for the Byzantines - and having the ERE as an ally is security for Dalmatia from the HRE and Hungary.

As much as it is Alt-Timeline Vengance, I love the idea of a Zara-Dalmatia and the ERE committing to a joint invasion of Venice. Much Pathos

 

[Ilúphatar]

Update! Just a short one to set the scene for events to come.
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'The construction of the Grand Fleet of Venice, originally intended to transport the Crusader army to Egypt in 1202, is often cited as the pinnacle of Venetian power. Composed of at least sixty warships and fifty transport vessels, along with sufficient horse carriers to supply an entire campaign, the fleet was considered large enough to wrest control of the sea from the Ayyubid Dynasty and establish Venice as the preeminent Mediterranean power.

However, its genesis also set Venice upon its path towards destruction. The chaos in the aftermath of the Crusader Mutiny led to the complete collapse of any ideas of Crusade, ending the need for the fleet. Its remaining function in relation to the Crusade resided solely in the eviction of the army from the Isle of Lido in the Venetian Lagoon, which the mutinous soldiers had seized. Without a clear purpose, the fate of the flotilla hung in the balance.'

Extract from - The Decline and Fall of the Venetian Republic

 

[MakiRoc]

I actually live there, so I know that very well.

Cool, then you understand what I'm talking about. Btw, I live in Zadar.

Have you even read that article?

It says that the most of population in Zadar spoke Slavic/Croatian language, high society used Latin ( as everywhere at the time ) and Dalmatian was used as "middle language". And all of them more-less at least understood Croatian/Slavic. Venetians also did make Croatian/Slavic version of terms of surrender for Zadar in 1346, after more than 150 years of Venetian rule there. ( p. 413, look at footnotes, also p. 424 ) )

Yes I have read it, very carefully, have you?

The author presumes that most of the population is of Slavic descent and speaks Croatian. He implies that it is not necessary to prove this and as proof mentions the example of the Zadar Peace treaty that was written in Latin and Slavic. This I find ridiculous since Venice and Zadar were not the only belligerents in this conflict. Croatians outside the city were also involved in this conflict, and it made sense to have a translation of the treaty.

The author did not say that Latin was the language of high society, but that it was a high language used by public administration and the Catholic Church. This is common in most of Europe, nothing special. The author said that Jadertine (what he calls the Dalmatian romance spoken in Zadar) was a low language that was relegated to the intimacy of the home. These are all of course his personal opinions. Italian historians would probably say something more pro-Italian. I prefer to take anything Croatian or Italian historians say on this subject with a grain of salt, since there is a lot of bias. The article to me is only interesting because you can actually read extracts from texts written in Zaratin Dalmatian.

Your'e mixing OTL with Venetian rule of 150 yars ( 1202 to 1358 ) and later 400 years ( after 1408 ) with TTL, where Venetian rule from 1202 simply isn't there. And even in OTL, 550+ years of Venetian allmost constant rule over Dalmatia didn't make majority ( not even a significant number ) of population speak Italian/Venetian.

To be frank I have no idea what your talking about. I am not mixing up nothing and I'm not talking about the percentage of Italian or Venetian speakers in the period you are mentioning. I'm not even challenging you that most of the people in the city knew Croatian (most were bilingual for practical reasons). I have shown you proof that Dalmatian romance was still spoken in Zadar in the late 14th century and used in wills, inventory lists and even in inter city correspondance. The POD for this timeline is the start of the 13th century. I still firmly believe that Dalmatian can prosper if Dalmatia is not hit with the devastation brought on by the Venetians. Of course you may disagree, and I respect your opinion.

So, IMHO, the example of how Romanic Dalmatian language will develop isn't OTL Zadar- it's OTL Dubrovnik Republic

I see what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree. The local varieties of Dalmatian for this timeline will develop totally different from any OTL example. The cites will not have Venetian overlords meaning much less Venetian influence (especially if Venice gets screwed bad and looses a lot of prestige), Ragusa will not be cut off from the other Dalmatian cites, and if the Dalmatians become really strong so will the prestige of their language.

Of course that some part of them used Latin ( and even Romanic language ) for long, but their culture and language is basicly Croatian/Slavic.

Latin was used in official purposes and in the church. No one actually used it in the streets. In Ragusa Latin was eventually replaced with Ragusan in the Senate and Slavic was actually forbidden for some time (I believe this was in the 15th century). They didn't like the rise of Slavic speakers.

Mind you, role of Dalmatian language was increased/boosted with 550+ years of allmost continous Venetian rule in Zadar/Dalmatia.

Are you serious?? This goes against every theory I have heard up to know.

About Cardinal Boso, so you think that Cardinal of Holy Catholic Church ( who probably knew Latin and Italian perfectly )- born in Italy would not be able to see the difference between Latin language, Italian/Romanic Dalmatian language or Slavic/Croatian language?

I think that Cardinal Boso is not a qualified linguistic or a geographer (he also called the islands on the eastern shore the Slavic islands). It was common in that time to call the region on the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sclavonia or Illyria, and any language on the eastern shore (be it Romance or Slavic) Slavic or Illyrian. Heck even Croatian was often called Dalmatian (by Croats none the less who should be experts on the subject).

Look I'm not saying that he wasn't greeted by a crowd in Croatian, but the event isn't really that well documented (maybe you have some more material?). Was it a big crowd? Where they city folk or out of towners that were in the city at that time? Was it really in Slavic? Were any words written down? I don't think its enough proof to say that Zadar was totally Croatianized when there is proof that it isn't. Lets say that we agree that we don't agree and leave it at that.