CSA's Industrialization and Finance Centers

[JJohnson]

For the sake of argument, and ignoring the pending infographic saying "impossible!!" let's say the CS won independence.

By 1865, the CS consists of:
-Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina
-Florida, Cuba (both purchased 1819 from Spain)
-Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee
-Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma
-the entire Arizona/New Mexico territory, minus the triangle, ceded to Nevada
-South California (Baja and California south of 37° N)
-Rio Grande, Chihuahua territory, Sonora territory
-Bahamas as part of North Carolina; Bermuda as part of Virginia

The US in this timeline had Columbia (49 to 52 N, and west of the continental divide) since 1846 by treaty and Nova Scotia and St John Island since 1783.

Let's also assume the following:
-Sherman fell at Shiloh, and never marched to the sea; Vicksburg was a CS victory and New Orleans was never captured by the Union
-Special Order 191 was never found by the Union army
-the CS successfully traded with the UK, which made a show of breaking through the blockade; the CS economy didn't crash and cotton flowed to the UK in exchange for war material; the US didn't want to risk war with the UK
-UK and French help, small but important came with the caveat that the CS would emancipate within 10 years, which they do.
-Cleburne's suggestion to enlist slaves was followed and thousands earned freedom in this way.
-The final treaty of peace cedes West Virginia and Alexandria county (to DC) to the Union; the CS does not get any "contraband" back and any freedmen who left for the Union army are allowed to stay; the CS and US allow anyone to exchange countries freely so any Union or Confederate sympathizers can leave for their desired country; the CS pays the US for all forts, magazines, etc; the US pays the CS for property damage or personal damage.

In 1867, Russia sold Alaska to the CS which had the money in this timeline; the US countered by purchasing the "northwestern territory" (Yukon) west of 120 W, and north of 60 N. By 1898, the CS had a short war with Spain, and gained Puerto Rico, Guam, and Philippines (later selling to the US for $14 million);

Considering the caveats, which cities would become major industrial centers? Financial centers? Cultural centers? Ports? I read that Atlanta was a major city in the 1860s, and Richmond also. Where else would become major cities for the CS in such a timeline?

 

[IntellectuallyHonestRhino]

New Orleans for certain will be a major financial hub, as it is a center of trade. It could definately become the CSA’s New York City, and become the central hub of financial transactions of large properties and stocks across the CSA.


The Upper South will most likely be the center of industrialization, but it will not be that much compared to the North. Without the South, the Union will be much more protectionist. Vice versus, the South on its own will be much more free trade. It’s a center of cash crops, and mostly rural. It will suppprt free trade. If the border states were part of the CSA, already it would be a lot more industrial nation.


In short I think the upper South and maybe as far South as upper Alabama would have some industry, but dominance from planters and bankers would make it a land of free trade, which would limit the growth of local industries. In short, it would not be a very industrial nation as the policies required for mass local industrialization would not be supported by the political and economic elites, and thus industrialization falters.


I also see no reason for the CSA to purchase Alaska. It’s useless for them. They would spend their valuable money on the military so that they could conquer more of Latin America to get warmer climate territory for the plantation business.


Lastly, why would the north keep the freedmen? The north supported freed soil partially because they didn’t want to be around black people. They were seen as wage competitors and were not welcomed. Look at the great migration in the 20’s where African Americans went to Kansas. Not a pleasant story of racial harmony to say the least.

 

[Southern pride]

List of places in importance

New Orleans
Richmond
Havana
Atlanta
Austin
Nashville

Proably something like this.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Somewhere in the Bahamas could easily be as big as Tampa or Miami, given the location and the fact the Bahamas has similar conditions to Florida. What I don't see is why these two British colonies would be merged into other states, when these are independent colonies on the same level as, say, North Carolina was in 1776. Surely they'd qualify as their own states? Especially the Bahamas, which by the mid-20th century could easily gain enough population to be able to vote for its statehood, although the development of the Bahamas will be a lot slower without the Northern money that would come in if the United States owned it.

Birmingham will be important due to the steel industry. Maybe Big Stone Gap, Virginia, will be a mid-sized city and be part of the Tri-Cities (Quad Cities TTL) of Tennessee/Virginia. Oklahoma will have at least one or two sizable cities thanks to coal and oil there. Texas will be the most powerful state in the CSA, though, due to oil, so Dallas (good fording spot on the Trinity River and near to oil) and Houston (Houston has a good place on shipping routes compared to earlier Texas ports) will still be major cities.

 

[Fiver]

For the sake of argument, and ignoring the pending infographic saying "impossible!!" let's say the CS won independence.

By 1865, the CS consists of:
-Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina
-Florida, Cuba (both purchased 1819 from Spain)
-Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee
-Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma
-the entire Arizona/New Mexico territory, minus the triangle, ceded to Nevada
-South California (Baja and California south of 37° N)
-Rio Grande, Chihuahua territory, Sonora territory
-Bahamas as part of North Carolina; Bermuda as part of Virginia.

By 1865? How did the Confederacy manage to crush the Union, Mexico, the Cubans, and Britain in only 4 years while fighting all of them at the same time?

 

[JJohnson]

By 1865? How did the Confederacy manage to crush the Union, Mexico, the Cubans, and Britain in only 4 years while fighting all of them at the same time?

It didn't.

I mentioned that Cuba was bought from Spain in my original post in 1819.
Saying "Rio Grande" assumes the Republic of the Rio Grande survived and most likely got help from Texas, and here, became a State before secession.
Including Baja, Sonora, and Chihuahua assumes they were most likely part of the Mexican Cession.
Bermuda and Bahamas here assume they were held since the 1770s by the US by saying they were part of two other states. This also assumes California is split in 1850 in some compromise between a free north and slave-holding south. Apologies for not staying my assumptions more at length.

 

[Fiver]

It didn't.

I mentioned that Cuba was bought from Spain in my original post in 1819.
Saying "Rio Grande" assumes the Republic of the Rio Grande survived and most likely got help from Texas, and here, became a State before secession.
Including Baja, Sonora, and Chihuahua assumes they were most likely part of the Mexican Cession.
Bermuda and Bahamas here assume they were held since the 1770s by the US by saying they were part of two other states. This also assumes California is split in 1850 in some compromise between a free north and slave-holding south. Apologies for not staying my assumptions more at length.

Your assumptions are so wide ranging as to butterfly away anything resembling OTL, let alone OTL's Civil War. For Bermuda to stay part of the Virginia Colony requires a divergence point in 1615. For the Bahamas to be a part of a mainland British colony requires a second unrelated divergence point in 1718. If TTL somehow still results in a Revolutionary War, odds are good that both the Bahamas and Bermuda remain in British control, so you need another divergence point to explain why they remain part of the US. If TTL somehow still results in a Quasi-War with France, you need another divergence point to explain why they remain part of the US. If TTL somehow still results Napoleonic Wars and US involvement in them, you have to explain why the Bahamas and Bermuda aren't seized by a European power again. You also need to explain why Spain would be willing to sell Cuba to the US, how the US defeats the Cubans, and why the Republic of the Rio Grande would want to join the US. If TTL's Mexican American War results in a greater Mexican Cessation, then you have 7 more slave states than in OTL, which means a Civil War is delayed until TTL's balance between free and slave states is in danger of collapse. In TTL's 1860, you would have 22 slave states and 18 free states. Since you list Kansas as part of the Confederacy, that makes it 23 slave states and 18 free states in 1861. That would make 1889, not 1861, the potential break point as the free states would finally outnumber the slave states by 25 to 23.

 

[IntellectuallyHonestRhino]

Honestly change a few things and this is just becoming the Empire of the Golden Circle.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Hahaha lol, enough said.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Okay that was a bit harsh,. Sorry but I just couldn't help it. How does the US actually afford to buy Cuba. I'll put aside for a moment the fact that Spain won't sell because it's eminently defendable where Florida was increasingly not. Add the fact that any price would likely be beyond the US ability to pay. They still had revelutionary war debts, making any Spanish price, assuming they actually we're inclined to do, which they wouldn't, but let's go with it makes financing its purchase prohibitive. Financing any war with Mexico over Texas extremely difficult let alone Oregon? Not without significantly more taxation, which would not go over well at all.


However, for the purposes of the OP. Baltimore-Norfolk tidewater and Birmingham-Tuscaloosa would be the early centers of primary industry. This expands later post 1890 and 20th century to Houston Galveston, Dallas Ft. worth and San Diego-Los Angeles later for later specialized secondary industries. Finance is largely likely Richmond/Baltimore. Charleston and New Orleans. San Diego will probably be the primary center and port (San Pedro and Guaymas being close second or third ports) on the west coast and could emerge as a West coast finance hub sometime in the later 20th century.

 

[JJohnson]

Somewhere in the Bahamas could easily be as big as Tampa or Miami, given the location and the fact the Bahamas has similar conditions to Florida. What I don't see is why these two British colonies would be merged into other states, when these are independent colonies on the same level as, say, North Carolina was in 1776. Surely they'd qualify as their own states? Especially the Bahamas, which by the mid-20th century could easily gain enough population to be able to vote for its statehood, although the development of the Bahamas will be a lot slower without the Northern money that would come in if the United States owned it.

Birmingham will be important due to the steel industry. Maybe Big Stone Gap, Virginia, will be a mid-sized city and be part of the Tri-Cities (Quad Cities TTL) of Tennessee/Virginia. Oklahoma will have at least one or two sizable cities thanks to coal and oil there. Texas will be the most powerful state in the CSA, though, due to oil, so Dallas (good fording spot on the Trinity River and near to oil) and Houston (Houston has a good place on shipping routes compared to earlier Texas ports) will still be major cities.

Yeah, I was going for Bermuda and Bahamas not separating but probably not so likely. I can go without them. To help simplify things, we can go down to these states:
FL, GA, SC, NC, VA, TN, KY, AL, CU (Cuba), MS, MO, AR, LA, TX, OK, SF (South California), RG; Sonora and Chihuahua territories, AZ and NM as Arizona Territory.

Antebellum:
-Cuba bought in 1819 along with FL; Spain sells due to several revolts and financial needs of Spain after the Napoleonic War; southerners move in and it is integrated into the US
-TX won independence from Mexico in 1836
-Rio Grande was helped in 1840 by TX to get independence from Mexico
-Both joined the US in 1845/6, sparking the Mexican -American War; after US wins, it gains Texas, Rio Grande, plus Baja, Sonora, Chihuahua, Alta California, New Mexico.
-US either has Nova Scotia/St John Island and Columbia, or just Vancouver Island, whichever is better.

Good info on the cities, I appreciate it.