Crown of the Confessor: the Chronicle of the Anglo-Saxon Kings
- Thread starter TheLordProtector
- Start date
You've just managed to combine two of my favorite AH concepts of the Middle Ages (and ironically, mutually exclusive ones); an Anglo-Saxon England that never falls to Normandy, and what appears to be a much stronger Briton nation (even if Breton, which is good enough for me). SUBSCRIBED! 
You've just managed to combine two of my favorite AH concepts of the Middle Ages (and ironically, mutually exclusive ones); an Anglo-Saxon England that never falls to Normandy, and what appears to be a much stronger Briton nation (even if Breton, which is good enough for me). SUBSCRIBED!
My pleasure, sir!
A much stronger Brittany is actually my single favorite medieval AH concept. Not to drop too many spoilers, but I think a king in Rennes (or rather, Roazhon) is definitely on the horizon.I just realized my notes are almost longer than the update itself.
It helps those of us that aren't very knowledgeable about the time (meaning me
). Good job so far!My pleasure, sir!
If a strong kingdom in Brittany is in the cards, I would hope that the Breton language overtakes French as the main tongue of the land. Also, I wonder what this will mean for Wales? Granted, England before the Normans wasn't as expansionist to the same extent that William's goons were, but I imagine that without outside support the Welsh wouldn't end up being more than an English satellite.
Also (I don't know if you were going anywhere in particular, WRT language) remember that, although the Norman language won't influence English like IOTL, there still can be a good amount of French borrowed into English as France solidifies. And even without so much Norman influence, English would probably be understood at a basic level by someone from OTL (much of the sound and spelling changes the language underwent IOTL happened before or parallel to Norman dominance of the tongue, not because of it).
It helps those of us that aren't very knowledgeable about the time (meaning me
Haha, thanks. I try to please.
The Welsh are certainly going to be an English satellite. I think I'll have Harold establish some vassals in the south who can adequately contain the raiders. Beyond that, not too much in store for Wales conquest-wise. As for the Breton language, it will only be dominant in the northwest (including Normandy), and will be seen among the peasants in the east as a foreign language. Remember, Brittany is only conquering Normandy, not all or even large parts of France (well, besides the duchy, of course).
English was already being quite influenced by the Norman language fairly heavily before William's conquest. However, it must be kept in mind that the Anglo-Danes in the north remain a distinct linguistic minority and will influence spoken English in the south far more than OTL, and will likely develop their own dialect.
I should have the next update somewhere between Monday and Wednesday.
Well, I wasn't expecting all of France to speak Breton, but that the Breton tongue would surpass French within Brittany (perhaps even in Normandy, if given enough time and effort). And I believe that an Anglo-Saxon England might actually be a good thing for Wales, as they may stand a better chance at retaining some of their self-determination and identity (moreso than OTL, anyway).
So we're looking at the creation of two distinct English dialects, one molded by French influence, and the other by Danish? Interesting, I await what directions the two variants will take. I also await the new update
Haha, thanks. I try to please.
The Welsh are certainly going to be an English satellite. I think I'll have Harold establish some vassals in the south who can adequately contain the raiders. Beyond that, not too much in store for Wales conquest-wise. As for the Breton language, it will only be dominant in the northwest (including Normandy), and will be seen among the peasants in the east as a foreign language. Remember, Brittany is only conquering Normandy, not all or even large parts of France (well, besides the duchy, of course).
English was already being quite influenced by the Norman language fairly heavily before William's conquest. However, it must be kept in mind that the Anglo-Danes in the north remain a distinct linguistic minority and will influence spoken English in the south far more than OTL, and will likely develop their own dialect.
I should have the next update somewhere between Monday and Wednesday.
Half of Brittany is French speaking, this means it will likely speed up Bretons demise and aside from that the Breton court is French speaking.Well, I wasn't expecting all of France to speak Breton, but that the Breton tongue would surpass French within Brittany (perhaps even in Normandy, if given enough time and effort). And I believe that an Anglo-Saxon England might actually be a good thing for Wales, as they may stand a better chance at retaining some of their self-determination and identity (moreso than OTL, anyway).
So we're looking at the creation of two distinct English dialects, one molded by French influence, and the other by Danish? Interesting, I await what directions the two variants will take. I also await the new update
I'm sorry, guys, this week has been quite busy. I promise I'll have an update up before next week!
As kasumi said, they did speak French at the Breton court: however, the Breton tongue will survive and indeed prosper later on (vague hinting!). As to Wales, indeed. However, they will likely remain very much disunited and thus rather easy pickings for any more expansionist English kings later on. That'll be quite a while from now, though, so Wales will have plenty of time to cement its identity before any future war.
Essentially, yes. And don't forget that Cornish is still flourishing in the southwest, and will likely continue to do so without the push towards uniformity of the Norman kings. Cornish will probably end up in a rather interesting situation in future; still the common tongue of the Cornish peninsula, but heavily influenced by Anglo-Saxon English and French. Right now, Cornwall is still part of the Earldom of Wessex (Harold's personal lands), but after his death, I've plans to establish more of a Cornish linguistic and cultural identity in the area. Anglo-Danish will be very much prevalent in the north: it will also be heavily influenced by Gaelic from Scotland (which will be very much a two-way street) and will influence and be influenced by the southern dialect. Southern English will have somewhat less strong French influence than OTL and somewhat stronger Scandinavian, Germanic, and Celtic influences due to the wealth of cultural diversity in the Anglo-Saxon kingdom. This massive cultural and linguistic diversity, which didn't survive the Normans IOTL (which, to be honest, I regard as William the Conquerer's greatest crime against humanity, worse in the long-term than his genocidal campaigns against the Anglo-Danes), will certainly cause some problems for the House of Godwin later, but do not necessarily mean the kingdom can't overcome these difficulties.
Basically, my point is that the British isles will be far, far more diverse than OTL. The best European cultural analogue would be Spain with its vastly diverse population rather than OTL Britain.
You are indeed correct; however, Breton will survive and even prosper later on as the kings of Brittany attempt to establish a separate identity for the kingdom.
As kasumi said, they did speak French at the Breton court: however, the Breton tongue will survive and indeed prosper later on (vague hinting!). As to Wales, indeed. However, they will likely remain very much disunited and thus rather easy pickings for any more expansionist English kings later on. That'll be quite a while from now, though, so Wales will have plenty of time to cement its identity before any future war.
So we're looking at the creation of two distinct English dialects, one molded by French influence, and the other by Danish? Interesting, I await what directions the two variants will take. I also await the new update
Essentially, yes. And don't forget that Cornish is still flourishing in the southwest, and will likely continue to do so without the push towards uniformity of the Norman kings. Cornish will probably end up in a rather interesting situation in future; still the common tongue of the Cornish peninsula, but heavily influenced by Anglo-Saxon English and French. Right now, Cornwall is still part of the Earldom of Wessex (Harold's personal lands), but after his death, I've plans to establish more of a Cornish linguistic and cultural identity in the area. Anglo-Danish will be very much prevalent in the north: it will also be heavily influenced by Gaelic from Scotland (which will be very much a two-way street) and will influence and be influenced by the southern dialect. Southern English will have somewhat less strong French influence than OTL and somewhat stronger Scandinavian, Germanic, and Celtic influences due to the wealth of cultural diversity in the Anglo-Saxon kingdom. This massive cultural and linguistic diversity, which didn't survive the Normans IOTL (which, to be honest, I regard as William the Conquerer's greatest crime against humanity, worse in the long-term than his genocidal campaigns against the Anglo-Danes), will certainly cause some problems for the House of Godwin later, but do not necessarily mean the kingdom can't overcome these difficulties.
Basically, my point is that the British isles will be far, far more diverse than OTL. The best European cultural analogue would be Spain with its vastly diverse population rather than OTL Britain.
You are indeed correct; however, Breton will survive and even prosper later on as the kings of Brittany attempt to establish a separate identity for the kingdom.
Perhaps we could turn it into a Scotland analog with the French language of the Kingdom of Brittany turns into a french version of Scotts while Breton is treated like the language of the Highlands.
But the situation will be similar to Scotland where in Scotts is predominating.Like it is now you mean? Re Breton and Gallo vs French
The French of the Kingdom of Brittany will be like a French version of Scots and Gallo is a peasant variant of French in Brittany in OTL but ITTL it will have a better recognition we might even see France turn into França due to Occitan retaining its literary value and the Kingdom of Brittany might be speaking the OTL French language..
While I agree that Gallo now is more "peasanty" prior to the revolution it did have some traction among the local nobility.
Gallo is less distinct now than it was earlier when it was more a separate language of the Oil group - it was certainly more distinct than a mere variant.
But Gallo gave way to Standard French in the Nobility due to Brittany being a Vassal of France but the ITTL Normanno-Gallo language will have a different evolution due to Brittany being independent.
Just a short update to advance the war in Normandy a bit and drop some tasty hints. I'll have some stuff on how England's progressing up soon.
Notes
(1) I find this eminently possible. After the deaths of your duke, most of his capable lords, and with an invasion by western barbarians (from the Norman point of view) imminent, well, wouldn't you surrender?
(2) The Bretons were rather fond of using lightly-armored cavalry in the 11th century, something that changed fairly quickly as time went on.
(3) Aimery and Konan were, by all accounts, on quite good terms OTL, despite, Aimery's collaboration with Duke William. Something of a friendly rivalry, unlike Konan and William's battle-to-the-death-type rivalry.
Excerpt from The Saga of Konan, Duke of Brittany, written 1122
Translated from the original by Hreodbeorht E. Haward
Translated from the original by Hreodbeorht E. Haward
The great chateau at Laval fell in early December, only a few weeks after Konan had arrived at its walls. The garrison, led by one Sir William D'Maine, gave up the fortress after only short resistance, their will to fight sapped by the yet-fresh deaths of so many courageous Norman lords and men(1). Duke Konan established himself in the chateau and ordered the grand Breton army to prepare themselves to winter in Laval. As was his habit, Konan announced that a great feast would be held at the chateau to celebrate Christmas, and led a hunting party into the not-yet-deep snows in the wilds of Maine to slaughter a few boar for the Duke's table. This party was accompanied and protected by fifty weakly-armored horsemen, as was the Breton wont(2).
In the deep snows and the woods, however, Konan and his men happened upon Aimery of Thouars and his retinue, and, mistaking them for Normans (for whom they had recently fought), skirmished with them. This lasted until the good Aimery pulled off his helm and called to Konan in a friendly manner(3). The two parties were quickly reconciled, and Aimery returned with the duke to Laval after a few boar were killed. As the winter snows halted the campaign season, an alliance was to be solidified at the Chateau Laval. An alliance that would shatter French unity for the next century...
In the deep snows and the woods, however, Konan and his men happened upon Aimery of Thouars and his retinue, and, mistaking them for Normans (for whom they had recently fought), skirmished with them. This lasted until the good Aimery pulled off his helm and called to Konan in a friendly manner(3). The two parties were quickly reconciled, and Aimery returned with the duke to Laval after a few boar were killed. As the winter snows halted the campaign season, an alliance was to be solidified at the Chateau Laval. An alliance that would shatter French unity for the next century...
Notes
(1) I find this eminently possible. After the deaths of your duke, most of his capable lords, and with an invasion by western barbarians (from the Norman point of view) imminent, well, wouldn't you surrender?
(2) The Bretons were rather fond of using lightly-armored cavalry in the 11th century, something that changed fairly quickly as time went on.
(3) Aimery and Konan were, by all accounts, on quite good terms OTL, despite, Aimery's collaboration with Duke William. Something of a friendly rivalry, unlike Konan and William's battle-to-the-death-type rivalry.
I had unexpected free time today, so I wrote another update fleshing out the beginning of Harold's reign. This is just politics and reshuffling really. No cool battles. Sorry. :/
Notes
(1) Another name for Harold ITTL. It could be said that this is somewhat incorrect, as Edgar is technically the last scion of the House of Wessex.
(2) Hakon was the son of Harold's older brother Sweyn (who was exiled, along with his wife and child, to Flanders by the Confessor), and vanishes from historical records around two years before the Norman conquest. I choose to believe, however, that Hakon returned to Wessex after his father's death and is now being tentatively favored by Harold.
(3) Exeter. The old name was used until at least 1000, and I've got no sources that say the modern name was used before the Norman Conquest. Thus, with the Anglo-Saxons remaining, I think we'll keep the old name for now.
(4) The Celtic Sea OTL.
(5) Harold's father Godwin had exterminated or moved across the river the Cornishmen who had traditionally lived in Devon, and established Tamar as the border between ethnically Celtic and English lands. Hakon is basically earl of Devon now, though he will (spoiler alert!) never become a de jure earl.
(6) The thanes are the middle class of Anglo-Saxon society, consisting of every adult male who did not hold an earldom and had the right to own land. Thanes had the right to sit in the Witenagemot and vote for the new king or suggest policy, and traditionally acted as somewhat conservative small landowners.
(7) The tythings were the the basic small collective group of Anglo-Saxon society, as well as borhs (fortified settlements), which were traditionally made up of ten households or ten landed adult males. The tythingman is basically the spokesman for such an organization. It's a fair bit more equal than usual ideas of vassalage, though the rest of the tything are technically the vassals of the tythingman.
(8) A collection of his personal hangers-on. Kinda groupies when you think about it.
(9) Early October, in other words.
(10) Frankpledge in Modern English. Basically a system of oaths and duties that extended from vassal to lord and vice-versa. Again, a fair bit more equal than usual feudalism.
(11) Yes, Godwine has been made an earl and Hakon has not. this is a deliberate attempt by Harold to please the younger members of his family without giving them too much power.
(12) This is an exaggeration, but by all accounts, Godwine was a fairly nice guy.
(13) The native Cornish landowners are still in power in Cornwall by this point, though by 1070 IOTL they would be all but disenfranchised. Harold is using his son as something of a diplomatic weapon here, honoring the Cornishmen by appointing his eldest as their liege.
(14) The Cornish name for Liskeard, which is a town in southeast Cornwall. It holds one of what are IOTL known as the "antiqua maneria" or ancient manors, seventeen proto-castles which were built by the Anglo-Saxons to control Cornwall. Here we can already see the surviving strength of Cornish, as Liskeard is known by its native name rather than its English one even two hundred years later.
(15) Basically turning them into castles, a tactic copied from Continental lords.
(16) ITTL, Gwynedd and Wales are used interchangeably by English speakers.
(17) Originally, as can be read above, the word borh was used to describe fortified settlements. However, by now, it has been adopted to describe the new castles which are going to be built throughout England by Harold and his descendents.
(18) An Anglo-Dane who, IOTL, supported Edgar the Aetheling as king after Harold, but who was not strong enough to fight William. He and Edwin of Mercia would later rebel against the Normans with the aid of Sveyn of Denmark, which would lead to the infamous Harrying of the North.
(19) See above. Edwin also supported the Aetheling, but failed to fight against William until Sveyn's invasion.
(20) The marches being Hakon's land. The OTL Duchy of Devon will here be known as either the earldom of Escanceaste (after Hakon's death), or the Cornish marches.
(21) Aetheling as spelled with the modern English alphabet. It means 'prince' and was used to describe Edgar because he was the very last scion of the House of Wessex and the last real descendent of the Confessor.
(22) Spoiler, kinda! The Sons of Godwin will most certainly fight to keep the throne under their control.
Excerpt from Chronicles of the Anglo-Saxon Kings, written 1290
...rode back from Hastings.
When King Harold victoriously returned to London, the various lords of England, both great and small, hailed him with righteous fervor. Harold himself ordered a huge celebration to be organized to commemorate the victories at Hastings and Stanford Bridge. As preparations began, the Scion of Wessex(1) began the work of kingship. His first act was to grant his nephew Hakon(2) lands stretching from the city of Escanceaste(3) in the south, the Welsh Sea in the north(4), the river Tamar in the west(5), and roughly the center of the hinterlands between Taunton and Escanceaste in the east. He refused, however, to grant his nephew's request to be declared an earl, asserting that he must prove his worth before rising above thane(6) and that he should be satisfied with his new status as a tythingman(7). Hakon and his small band of retainers(8) rode for Escanceaste in the dying days of autumn(9), carrying with them a black seed of resentment.
Harold further granted the lands of Cornwall to Godwine Haroldsson,
his eldest son. Godwine was honored by this gesture and swore his frith-borh(10) without hesitation. The new earl(11), who was known for his personal strength and nobility(12), began his reign over Cornwall by riding out personally in cold November and establishing his reputation among his Celtic vassals(13) by promising to protect their autonomy and inviting them to his own Christmas feast at Liskerrys(14), his chosen capital. He also began the work of constructing a high stone wall around the lord's manor at Liskerrys and the other 16 manors of Cornwall(15), to ensure that Cornish rebellions or invasions from Gwynedd(16) and Brittany would be blunted by his new borhs(17).
This granting of various lands to family instead of supporters from other houses was not, however, totally acclaimed within the kingdom. The Earl Morcar of Northumbria(18) and his younger brother, Edwin of Mercia(19), opposed the granting of Cornwall and the marches thereof (20) to the younger members of the House of Godwin, claiming it would further complicate the succession and give too much power to the House of Godwin as a whole. Morcar and Edwin both supported the granting of the new earldom of Cornwall to Edgar the Æþeling(21), grandson of Edmund Ironside, to further strengthen his claim to the throne after Harold's death.
Harold the Stalwart, however, had no intention of allowing the kingship Godwin blood had been shed for to pass again into the hands of the House of Wessex...(22)
When King Harold victoriously returned to London, the various lords of England, both great and small, hailed him with righteous fervor. Harold himself ordered a huge celebration to be organized to commemorate the victories at Hastings and Stanford Bridge. As preparations began, the Scion of Wessex(1) began the work of kingship. His first act was to grant his nephew Hakon(2) lands stretching from the city of Escanceaste(3) in the south, the Welsh Sea in the north(4), the river Tamar in the west(5), and roughly the center of the hinterlands between Taunton and Escanceaste in the east. He refused, however, to grant his nephew's request to be declared an earl, asserting that he must prove his worth before rising above thane(6) and that he should be satisfied with his new status as a tythingman(7). Hakon and his small band of retainers(8) rode for Escanceaste in the dying days of autumn(9), carrying with them a black seed of resentment.
Harold further granted the lands of Cornwall to Godwine Haroldsson,
his eldest son. Godwine was honored by this gesture and swore his frith-borh(10) without hesitation. The new earl(11), who was known for his personal strength and nobility(12), began his reign over Cornwall by riding out personally in cold November and establishing his reputation among his Celtic vassals(13) by promising to protect their autonomy and inviting them to his own Christmas feast at Liskerrys(14), his chosen capital. He also began the work of constructing a high stone wall around the lord's manor at Liskerrys and the other 16 manors of Cornwall(15), to ensure that Cornish rebellions or invasions from Gwynedd(16) and Brittany would be blunted by his new borhs(17).
This granting of various lands to family instead of supporters from other houses was not, however, totally acclaimed within the kingdom. The Earl Morcar of Northumbria(18) and his younger brother, Edwin of Mercia(19), opposed the granting of Cornwall and the marches thereof (20) to the younger members of the House of Godwin, claiming it would further complicate the succession and give too much power to the House of Godwin as a whole. Morcar and Edwin both supported the granting of the new earldom of Cornwall to Edgar the Æþeling(21), grandson of Edmund Ironside, to further strengthen his claim to the throne after Harold's death.
Harold the Stalwart, however, had no intention of allowing the kingship Godwin blood had been shed for to pass again into the hands of the House of Wessex...(22)
Notes
(1) Another name for Harold ITTL. It could be said that this is somewhat incorrect, as Edgar is technically the last scion of the House of Wessex.
(2) Hakon was the son of Harold's older brother Sweyn (who was exiled, along with his wife and child, to Flanders by the Confessor), and vanishes from historical records around two years before the Norman conquest. I choose to believe, however, that Hakon returned to Wessex after his father's death and is now being tentatively favored by Harold.
(3) Exeter. The old name was used until at least 1000, and I've got no sources that say the modern name was used before the Norman Conquest. Thus, with the Anglo-Saxons remaining, I think we'll keep the old name for now.
(4) The Celtic Sea OTL.
(5) Harold's father Godwin had exterminated or moved across the river the Cornishmen who had traditionally lived in Devon, and established Tamar as the border between ethnically Celtic and English lands. Hakon is basically earl of Devon now, though he will (spoiler alert!) never become a de jure earl.
(6) The thanes are the middle class of Anglo-Saxon society, consisting of every adult male who did not hold an earldom and had the right to own land. Thanes had the right to sit in the Witenagemot and vote for the new king or suggest policy, and traditionally acted as somewhat conservative small landowners.
(7) The tythings were the the basic small collective group of Anglo-Saxon society, as well as borhs (fortified settlements), which were traditionally made up of ten households or ten landed adult males. The tythingman is basically the spokesman for such an organization. It's a fair bit more equal than usual ideas of vassalage, though the rest of the tything are technically the vassals of the tythingman.
(8) A collection of his personal hangers-on. Kinda groupies when you think about it.
(9) Early October, in other words.
(10) Frankpledge in Modern English. Basically a system of oaths and duties that extended from vassal to lord and vice-versa. Again, a fair bit more equal than usual feudalism.
(11) Yes, Godwine has been made an earl and Hakon has not. this is a deliberate attempt by Harold to please the younger members of his family without giving them too much power.
(12) This is an exaggeration, but by all accounts, Godwine was a fairly nice guy.
(13) The native Cornish landowners are still in power in Cornwall by this point, though by 1070 IOTL they would be all but disenfranchised. Harold is using his son as something of a diplomatic weapon here, honoring the Cornishmen by appointing his eldest as their liege.
(14) The Cornish name for Liskeard, which is a town in southeast Cornwall. It holds one of what are IOTL known as the "antiqua maneria" or ancient manors, seventeen proto-castles which were built by the Anglo-Saxons to control Cornwall. Here we can already see the surviving strength of Cornish, as Liskeard is known by its native name rather than its English one even two hundred years later.
(15) Basically turning them into castles, a tactic copied from Continental lords.
(16) ITTL, Gwynedd and Wales are used interchangeably by English speakers.
(17) Originally, as can be read above, the word borh was used to describe fortified settlements. However, by now, it has been adopted to describe the new castles which are going to be built throughout England by Harold and his descendents.
(18) An Anglo-Dane who, IOTL, supported Edgar the Aetheling as king after Harold, but who was not strong enough to fight William. He and Edwin of Mercia would later rebel against the Normans with the aid of Sveyn of Denmark, which would lead to the infamous Harrying of the North.
(19) See above. Edwin also supported the Aetheling, but failed to fight against William until Sveyn's invasion.
(20) The marches being Hakon's land. The OTL Duchy of Devon will here be known as either the earldom of Escanceaste (after Hakon's death), or the Cornish marches.
(21) Aetheling as spelled with the modern English alphabet. It means 'prince' and was used to describe Edgar because he was the very last scion of the House of Wessex and the last real descendent of the Confessor.
(22) Spoiler, kinda! The Sons of Godwin will most certainly fight to keep the throne under their control.
TheLordProtector
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One query. I think it is fairly well documented that Williams army did loot and burn fairly widely during the Hastings campaign. Both to get loot and food for the army and to incite Harold to fight quickly, as it was part of the ancestorial Godwineson lands that William was devastating. Again, while he was being crowned in London his forces were looting the neighbouring streets. [Apparently possibly because they thought that the acclimation for the new 'king' were hostile threats but from most accounts William did nothing to stop it].
Its going to be an interesting future. I think England will still be a more unified state that most of the other western European powers as the basic structure was already there, but its not [hopefully] going to be anything like as autocratic as OTL. Agree that, provided some method to stop raids can be worked out, Wales is likely to remain fairly independent. However still likely to have conflict with the northern lords and probably the Scots. On the other hand Anglo-Saxon England had pretty good terms with the Irish, who are also going to escape a brutal occupation.
One other problem that Harold might have. He has recently re-married having ditched his long time common-law [to use the modern term] wife and when he died OTL his wife was pregnant. [Ironically I think she was sister of Morcar and Edwin who was married to the Welsh king that Harold defeated and killed a few years back]. As such, presuming Harold lives another decade or so, there are likely to be two possibly rival, Godwin dynasties, which could be a factor for opponents trying to play off supporters against them. Just looked this up on Wiki and there were twin sons born to Edith of Mercia shortly after Harold's death. His son's by his 2nd marriage are likely to be too young when he dies to be powerful in themselves but could be used by others, especially since the clergy were reluctant to recognise his marriage to his 1st wife. Could be a nasty mess in a few years time.
Are you going to cover the wider impact of the successful defence of England? For one thing with the Normans defeated and it sounds like much of the land being ruled by Konan what's going to happen to the OTL Norman domination of many areas. They are probably fairly secure in S Italy, and could even be strengthened by refugees from Normandy itself. However there's not going to be a continued current of Norman knights from Normandy and England looking for land and the impact on France of William's death and the removal of Normandy as a powerful rival to the king in Paris will have effects. [Although Konan's Brittany could fill part of the role]. Could also have impacts on the crusades, presuming the mess that the eastern empire got into still ends the same way. Unlikely to be Saxon exiles forming a large part of the Varagarian Guard however in TTL.
Steve
Just found this and looking good. Definitely subscribing.
One query. I think it is fairly well documented that Williams army did loot and burn fairly widely during the Hastings campaign. Both to get loot and food for the army and to incite Harold to fight quickly, as it was part of the ancestorial Godwineson lands that William was devastating. Again, while he was being crowned in London his forces were looting the neighbouring streets. [Apparently possibly because they thought that the acclimation for the new 'king' were hostile threats but from most accounts William did nothing to stop it].
Its going to be an interesting future. I think England will still be a more unified state that most of the other western European powers as the basic structure was already there, but its not [hopefully] going to be anything like as autocratic as OTL. Agree that, provided some method to stop raids can be worked out, Wales is likely to remain fairly independent. However still likely to have conflict with the northern lords and probably the Scots. On the other hand Anglo-Saxon England had pretty good terms with the Irish, who are also going to escape a brutal occupation.
One other problem that Harold might have. He has recently re-married having ditched his long time common-law [to use the modern term
] wife and when he died OTL his wife was pregnant. [Ironically I think she was sister of Morcar and Edwin who was married to the Welsh king that Harold defeated and killed a few years back]. As such, presuming Harold lives another decade or so, there are likely to be two possibly rival, Godwin dynasties, which could be a factor for opponents trying to play off supporters against them. Just looked this up on Wiki and there were twin sons born to Edith of Mercia shortly after Harold's death. His son's by his 2nd marriage are likely to be too young when he dies to be powerful in themselves but could be used by others, especially since the clergy were reluctant to recognise his marriage to his 1st wife. Could be a nasty mess in a few years time.Are you going to cover the wider impact of the successful defence of England? For one thing with the Normans defeated and it sounds like much of the land being ruled by Konan what's going to happen to the OTL Norman domination of many areas. They are probably fairly secure in S Italy, and could even be strengthened by refugees from Normandy itself. However there's not going to be a continued current of Norman knights from Normandy and England looking for land and the impact on France of William's death and the removal of Normandy as a powerful rival to the king in Paris will have effects. [Although Konan's Brittany could fill part of the role]. Could also have impacts on the crusades, presuming the mess that the eastern empire got into still ends the same way. Unlikely to be Saxon exiles forming a large part of the Varagarian Guard however in TTL.
Steve
TheLordProtector
Just found this and looking good. Definitely subscribing.
Thanks! I love to hear that.
Indeed, William ravaged Wessex quite heavily IOTL: however, here, there is much less damage, as he was stopped at Hastings. The Normans continued burning and looting after Edgar the Aetheling was crowned in Westminster, and only stopped a bit after William was firmly on the throne.
Indeed, England will certainly be a more unified state; however, since it already has a very high degree of local autonomy in cooperation with the state, it is very unlikely that an autocratic state will emerge in England unless another invasion happens (which I certainly don't plan). As to Wales, I'm in favor of Harold supporting one or a group of the local lords against the others, and helping them defeat their foes in exchange for stopping the raids. The Scots are rather quiescent at the moment, as Canmore favors the Godwinsons as kings of England. That might change. The northern lords will cause problems, but not unmanageable ones. Certainly not anything as dramatic as what led to OTL's Harrying of the North. Ireland will probably remain disunited for now, though the small Norse counties in the east will grow fairly wealthy off of trade and the like.
Well, the Godwins certainly won't split into two rival dynasties, but rival factions are certainly a possibility. Harold's sons, brothers, nephews, and the like will most definitely be competing for the throne and for the various earldoms of southern England after Harold, Leofwine, and Gyrth's deaths. There will be trouble, but they'll survive, though likely much changed.
The Normans will only be ousted from Normandy proper; they're most certainly secure in Sicily, and may even do better than OTL in the Mediterranean. However, after Konan's war, they will very permanently be ousted from northern France.
Remember, the removal of Normandy also means the removal of a threat to the rather restive dukes of France, who have much larger holdings and command much vaster amounts of men than the king can personally summon. There might be fracturing or there might simply be an increasingly weak(er) king at the behest of the southern dukes. All I can really say is the French monarchy is going to suffer as a result of this change (ironically enough).
Unfortunately, I know very little about the crusades and the Byzzies, so I'm going to have to do quite a bit of research on 'em before I can cover that part. I'll get to it as soon as I can though.
Should be an update later this weekend on the progress of Konan's war in 1067. Thanks for reading!