Crown of the Confessor: the Chronicle of the Anglo-Saxon Kings

[TheLordProtector]

Completely forgot to comment on your thoughts, Mac!

Good golly, we have an update! It seems the Angle-Danes got their rears kicked but good, and their benefactor Svend taken out of the game pretty decisively as well. I did note the death toll of the Angledanskere was listed, but not of the Saxons; who would you say is the more bloodied of the two? And also, with England firmly under Harold's thumb again, one wonders what he will do next while he's yet got life in him? Not that I think he's THAT old, of course.

Well, while the Saxons have suffered huge losses and won't be able to carry on another war of this type, or indeed any great land war, for many years, the Angledanskere have fared far worse, suffering not only great casualties among men of fighting age, but also women and children. It's similar proportionally to the demographic effect of World War 2 on Russia, with something like every two out of ten Anglo-Danes dead by the end of the war. While the Anglo-Saxons aren't the genocidal maniacs the Normans were IOTL, they can be just as brutal as any other medieval power (or for that matter, many modern powers).

Harold's not that old even for a medieval monarch, and still has plenty of time ahead of him to consolidate. While it may seem sort of surprising the amount of fighting that's occurred since his reign began, one must remember that his time on the throne was disputed by nearly every major power with interests in England at the time. Some get a smooth accession, others have to claw their way to the top. But I'm drifting off-topic. Harold's major priorities for the coming years are going to be to lock down the succession in favor of, er, someone in the House of Godwin (I haven't actually decided yet ) and reorganize the vast amounts of land his dear brother Gyrth's untimely death has bequeathed to the crown. Beyond that, I'm quite sure he'll be happy to take something of a break from the constant, desperate struggle to keep his crown.

Also, while I do so love the British updates, I also look forward to how France is turning out...and see great potential in butterflies further afield (reference to Miklagard, for one). Great stuff!

We'll be going back to France soon, then moving on to cover things more easterly.

 

[Jord839]

Well, as I said, this is only the beginning of centralization. It will take generations to fully establish the High King's power as an absolute monarch, and that only at great personal cost to the Ui Ceinnselaig. It's well worth it to have an independent Ireland though.

Oh, true, this is only the very beginning. Ireland's right up there with the HRE and contemporary France for its political divisions, so we can't move too quickly.

Something about this set-up just reminds me of a very old TL where Irish central monarchy collapsed and the clans ended up in a de-facto merchant republic because they couldn't pick a reasonable successor amongst themselves, but couldn't afford to truly split either.

Mann is somewhat more Norse than Gaelic at this point, though as with most Celtic-Norse cultures, this is primarily reflected in culture and phenotype rather than language. The major tongue in Mann remains Manx, while the Innse Gall speak Scottish Gaelic. So in a sense, yes, the conquest of the southern isles is something of a boon to Scottish Gaelic. Keep in mind, however, that Early Scots (the Scottish-accented equivalent to Old English ) is very much restricted to the far south of Scotland, and there only amongst commoners, while Gaelic remains and will remain the language of politics and the court. What I'd look for rather than a bilingual Scotland is actually something of a trilingual Scotland. At this juncture, Manx, Scottish Gaelic, and Old English (influenced by Angledansk and Gaelic) are the three primary languages. As time goes on, the English spoken in Scotland will become more of an insular rather than expanding language, and will also be subject to significant influence from the Celts and Danes. Indeed, I doubt someone from southern England would be able to understand a Scots speaker after around three-four hundred years have passed (not that it isn't like that IOTL ). This variant of English (we'll call it Scots for now) will remain mostly restricted to the southern lower classes, which could certainly lead to some problems later on if these develop an ethnolinguistic identity. We'll see what happens. As for Manx, while it's fairly well isolated, some influence will come in from the Scottish Gaels as well as remaining Irish and Norse influence, so we should have some interesting things there. As for the Gaelic-speaking Scots (let's call them Albans for now) they'll be influenced by the remaining Norse populations to the north and in the new conquests (in a small but significant way), as well as the English dialects in southern Scotland and northern England. Should be very interesting to see what happens there!

That sounds very interesting. I'll admit, I was cynical that Manx would last all that long, but considering its isolation, maybe I'm wrong.

By the way, I'd just like to mention that I love how much the commentators on this TL care about alternate languages. That, and the survival and growth of these extraordinary pre-Norman cultures, is pretty much the point of this timeline.

What can we say? We're language geeks.

 

[TheLordProtector]

Hey guys, I'm having a bit of writer's block (plus I just moved back in at college, so it's a bit of a rush at the moment). I'll post as soon as I'm over it, I promise!

 

[FleetMac]

BUMP...also, had some thoughts on the last post WRT the Celtic world ITTL, if the author's up for it. Or anybody reading, really.

 

[TheLordProtector]

BUMP...also, had some thoughts on the last post WRT the Celtic world ITTL, if the author's up for it. Or anybody reading, really.

I'm very very up for it! Let's hear 'em.

I should have an update this week, guys. I'm sorry I'm so flaky!

 

[FleetMac]

Mann is somewhat more Norse than Gaelic at this point, though as with most Celtic-Norse cultures, this is primarily reflected in culture and phenotype rather than language. The major tongue in Mann remains Manx, while the Innse Gall speak Scottish Gaelic. So in a sense, yes, the conquest of the southern isles is something of a boon to Scottish Gaelic. Keep in mind, however, that Early Scots (the Scottish-accented equivalent to Old English ) is very much restricted to the far south of Scotland, and there only amongst commoners, while Gaelic remains and will remain the language of politics and the court. What I'd look for rather than a bilingual Scotland is actually something of a trilingual Scotland. At this juncture, Manx, Scottish Gaelic, and Old English (influenced by Angledansk and Gaelic) are the three primary languages. As time goes on, the English spoken in Scotland will become more of an insular rather than expanding language, and will also be subject to significant influence from the Celts and Danes. Indeed, I doubt someone from southern England would be able to understand a Scots speaker after around three-four hundred years have passed (not that it isn't like that IOTL ). This variant of English (we'll call it Scots for now) will remain mostly restricted to the southern lower classes, which could certainly lead to some problems later on if these develop an ethnolinguistic identity. We'll see what happens. As for Manx, while it's fairly well isolated, some influence will come in from the Scottish Gaels as well as remaining Irish and Norse influence, so we should have some interesting things there. As for the Gaelic-speaking Scots (let's call them Albans for now) they'll be influenced by the remaining Norse populations to the north and in the new conquests (in a small but significant way), as well as the English dialects in southern Scotland and northern England. Should be very interesting to see what happens there!

....

That is indeed my plan, such as it is. I see TTL's England's only big ties with Western Europe, beyond some trade, being the quasi-dynastic ties with Conan's Brittany. England's big concerns in the political realm are going to be Scandinavian and Italian (in the form of the Papacy). The highly unfortunate precedent of the Pope blessing William's conquest is going to cause a lot of animosity from the House of Godwin--and as so many stories and sagas show, Germanic peoples have a tendency to keep grudges. In terms of trading, Anglo-Saxon merchants will be fairly well-traveled as per OTL, but the greatest trading ties will be with Scandinavia, the HRE, and other British nations. As for Ireland, I firmly believe that the only way for a homegrown power to be successful is to go the way of the Netherlands and focus on trade and the development of a navy at least able to hold its own if not dominate. Therefore, we'll see the High Kings encourage the exponential growth of trade within and without Ireland, as I tried to make somewhat more obvious by pointing out the fact that the basis of Diarmait's power was his control over the great southeastern trading ports. This will set an important precedent for Ui Ceinnselaig.

-WRT *Scotland's Languages: I'm surprised that Manx will be considered a major language of the land compared to Gaelic and "Scots"/Alban English given its isolation and relative distance, but I'm in agreement it'll likely survive on the isle proper due to those same reasons. The impression I'm getting is their "English" will eventually overcome Gaelic in pure numbers for much the same reasons as OTL (that is, it's spoken by people in the more temperate and climatically nicer region, which will likely have a larger population base than up north around Scone and such). That being said, it'd be cool if A) Gaelic survived as the tongue of state and the Court, and B) it influenced English via trickle-down socio-economics the same way that the Normans influenced English. Gaelic, after all, has the backing of Diarmait and Malcolm's aftercomers as the speech of the Scots (likely still the "chief demographic" of Alba, just with a more shrunken Germanic feel and an enlarged Celtic one in cultural terms, although perhaps the Norse/Angledansk elements will even things out a bit in certain placenames terminology, weather phrases, and other "everyday" aspects). Now in terms of international relations, see my comments below.

-It's kinda neat to see the Irish end up a trading power in all likelihood ITTL so as to not be buried under by the Saxons, sort of like MNP's "Raptor of Spain" timeline in a way (that's supposed to be a compliment, btw ). I wouldn't have thought they would have the resources to maintain a trade fleet for interacting with Western Europe and/or the New World, but then again the same could be said of the OTL Netherlands (besides, IIRC Ireland did have plenty of forests all over the Emerald Isle before the Anglo-Normans and their descendants decided to ransack the place, a la "Bonnie Portmore"). It'd be neat to see the Celts actually stand out as a prominent and impactful nation in the great milieu of Europe besides being London's b***h for a long while, 'tis for sure! Would you say Alba would end up being closer in international relations and trade to Ireland's approach (possibly a competitor, at least early on), or looking more eastward like England apparently will? Both countries are as well-disposed to establishing trade empires (and, with some luck/happenstance, maybe even settler colonies) by geography and resources, after all, and I could see Alba's royalty wanting to try and stand apart both from their cousins across the sea and their neighbors to the south as much as possible. And speaking of England, I'm in agreement that they may end up looking (at least initially) like a Saxon version of Denmark in terms of political setup/evolution and trade focus about the North Sea. In their case, would they also seek to keep touch with the Rhomans in addition to the Bretons and Italians/Vatican as well?

 

[Jord839]

-WRT *Scotland's Languages: I'm surprised that Manx will be considered a major language of the land compared to Gaelic and "Scots"/Alban English given its isolation and relative distance, but I'm in agreement it'll likely survive on the isle proper due to those same reasons. The impression I'm getting is their "English" will eventually overcome Gaelic in pure numbers for much the same reasons as OTL (that is, it's spoken by people in the more temperate and climatically nicer region, which will likely have a larger population base than up north around Scone and such). That being said, it'd be cool if A) Gaelic survived as the tongue of state and the Court, and B) it influenced English via trickle-down socio-economics the same way that the Normans influenced English. Gaelic, after all, has the backing of Diarmait and Malcolm's aftercomers as the speech of the Scots (likely still the "chief demographic" of Alba, just with a more shrunken Germanic feel and an enlarged Celtic one in cultural terms, although perhaps the Norse/Angledansk elements will even things out a bit in certain placenames terminology, weather phrases, and other "everyday" aspects). Now in terms of international relations, see my comments below.

I'm actually thinking that TTL's *Scots language might actually stay somewhat around or below the population of Gaelic speakers for a very long time. They do have the better farming land and such, but we've heard that the language of the court and upper classes will remain Scottish Gaelic and so as we go farther along and a middle class develops there I see two routes developing:

1) The Lowlands Scots speakers trying to climb up the social ladder either to get jobs in cities or to become respected merchants will see Scottish Gaelic as the "more prestigious"/"more useful" language and gradually come to accept the Court language. *Scots would still be widely spoken, but still subservient to Scottish Gaelic as the language of government and, eventually, the economy.

2) If there is enough of a population and resource disparity, said social climbers may come to resent the Scottish Gaelic aristocracy, which could lead to creating their own cultural-linguistic identity in opposition to them or at the very least create strong rebellious feelings that could eventually end up on opposite sides of, oh say, a religious war or two?

-It's kinda neat to see the Irish end up a trading power in all likelihood ITTL so as to not be buried under by the Saxons, sort of like MNP's "Raptor of Spain" timeline in a way (that's supposed to be a compliment, btw ). I wouldn't have thought they would have the resources to maintain a trade fleet for interacting with Western Europe and/or the New World, but then again the same could be said of the OTL Netherlands (besides, IIRC Ireland did have plenty of forests all over the Emerald Isle before the Anglo-Normans and their descendants decided to ransack the place, a la "Bonnie Portmore"). It'd be neat to see the Celts actually stand out as a prominent and impactful nation in the great milieu of Europe besides being London's b***h for a long while, 'tis for sure! Would you say Alba would end up being closer in international relations and trade to Ireland's approach (possibly a competitor, at least early on), or looking more eastward like England apparently will? Both countries are as well-disposed to establishing trade empires (and, with some luck/happenstance, maybe even settler colonies) by geography and resources, after all, and I could see Alba's royalty wanting to try and stand apart both from their cousins across the sea and their neighbors to the south as much as possible. And speaking of England, I'm in agreement that they may end up looking (at least initially) like a Saxon version of Denmark in terms of political setup/evolution and trade focus about the North Sea. In their case, would they also seek to keep touch with the Rhomans in addition to the Bretons and Italians/Vatican as well?

Maybe the Scots will focus on the North and conquer Iceland and Greenland?

But seriously, I imagine that Scotland and Ireland will eventually end up in a de-facto partnership or complementary set of separate strategies in their business. As you say, while both Scotland and Ireland have the resources necessary for start-up as major mercantile middlemen and with an early and largely conflict-free existence they have a leg up in establishing them before continental competitors can overwhelm them, they still do not have enough to dominate on their own. Neither country has large deposits of any precious minerals, and (for now at least) neither has the amount of excess population to compete with larger powers for colonies down the line by themselves.

I think what you will see is the two largest Celtic nations trying to avoid conflict by focusing on different spheres of interest. I imagine that Ireland will focus more on gold from the west(at first as service and allies to rising interests like Brittany and Aquitaine, perhaps parts of Spain as well and eventually focusing on the New World and areas further afield) while Scotland focuses on trade from England and Scandinavia for natural resources to sell. There will be plenty of times when they are in competition, but geography and politics make it so they will eventually have to settle on some sort of detente.

When colonies start up, I imagine that either one of the two will be the primary establisher of the colonies with significant immigration from the other(easier to learn language of government, plenty of opportunity, trade contacts at home that benefit, etc. will make strong draws of immigration) while the other focuses on smaller but more easily profitable trading posts. I'm not sure which would be more likely to take which role though.

I still protest the idea that England will automatically end up going *Protestant because of something that will, by that time, have happened three hundred years ago because it sounds a little too much like determinism and stereotyping of the "Germanic/Protestant mindset". However, I admit we've got a lot of time to see how things shape up, and it would be one of those things that's held up as justification in hindsight for contemporary problems being too typical to be forgiven. If it is going to happen, there's a lot that could be different here. Depending on how politics develop, social situations in the countries, and international diplomacy shapes up, I expect that there will be relatively more division in both Scotland and Ireland about whether to side with the Pope or the *Reformation than OTL, but will not speculate on which side they would end up on. There's just too many events in the intervening time to say one way or another right now.

 

[FleetMac]

I'm actually thinking that TTL's *Scots language might actually stay somewhat around or below the population of Gaelic speakers for a very long time. They do have the better farming land and such, but we've heard that the language of the court and upper classes will remain Scottish Gaelic and so as we go farther along and a middle class develops there I see two routes developing:

1) The Lowlands Scots speakers trying to climb up the social ladder either to get jobs in cities or to become respected merchants will see Scottish Gaelic as the "more prestigious"/"more useful" language and gradually come to accept the Court language. *Scots would still be widely spoken, but still subservient to Scottish Gaelic as the language of government and, eventually, the economy.

2) If there is enough of a population and resource disparity, said social climbers may come to resent the Scottish Gaelic aristocracy, which could lead to creating their own cultural-linguistic identity in opposition to them or at the very least create strong rebellious feelings that could eventually end up on opposite sides of, oh say, a religious war or two?



Maybe the Scots will focus on the North and conquer Iceland and Greenland?

But seriously, I imagine that Scotland and Ireland will eventually end up in a de-facto partnership or complementary set of separate strategies in their business. As you say, while both Scotland and Ireland have the resources necessary for start-up as major mercantile middlemen and with an early and largely conflict-free existence they have a leg up in establishing them before continental competitors can overwhelm them, they still do not have enough to dominate on their own. Neither country has large deposits of any precious minerals, and (for now at least) neither has the amount of excess population to compete with larger powers for colonies down the line by themselves.

I think what you will see is the two largest Celtic nations trying to avoid conflict by focusing on different spheres of interest. I imagine that Ireland will focus more on gold from the west(at first as service and allies to rising interests like Brittany and Aquitaine, perhaps parts of Spain as well and eventually focusing on the New World and areas further afield) while Scotland focuses on trade from England and Scandinavia for natural resources to sell. There will be plenty of times when they are in competition, but geography and politics make it so they will eventually have to settle on some sort of detente.

When colonies start up, I imagine that either one of the two will be the primary establisher of the colonies with significant immigration from the other(easier to learn language of government, plenty of opportunity, trade contacts at home that benefit, etc. will make strong draws of immigration) while the other focuses on smaller but more easily profitable trading posts. I'm not sure which would be more likely to take which role though.

I still protest the idea that England will automatically end up going *Protestant because of something that will, by that time, have happened three hundred years ago because it sounds a little too much like determinism and stereotyping of the "Germanic/Protestant mindset". However, I admit we've got a lot of time to see how things shape up, and it would be one of those things that's held up as justification in hindsight for contemporary problems being too typical to be forgiven. If it is going to happen, there's a lot that could be different here. Depending on how politics develop, social situations in the countries, and international diplomacy shapes up, I expect that there will be relatively more division in both Scotland and Ireland about whether to side with the Pope or the *Reformation than OTL, but will not speculate on which side they would end up on. There's just too many events in the intervening time to say one way or another right now.

-It could go either way depending on that middle class' growth pattern, but there's a complication about Gaelic becoming the language of commerce; the only other people outside Alba who'd speak it are the Irish, not so much the English, *Dutch, Danish, Bretons, etc. who they'd also be trading with. That doesn't mean Scottish Gaelic can't become the language of half-to-most of the country's population (I'd personally rather a 50/50 split, mostly because I'm really interested in seeing what a Germanic language with a massive Celtic superstrate would look like), but it does mean they'll have to develop a tradition of multilingualism. And that's before any religious wars enter the picture, which may swing things one way or another more drastically than the way things would develop otherwise, IMO, due to the possibility of associating one language with a religious sect.

-Just address the Protestant thing first, who said anything about Protestantism in England? I commented that they'd likely interact with the Vatican (and likely Italy by extension) one of a handful of Western European places they'd consider themselves in the sphere of, not that they'd be any more hostile to the Church than OTL. Anyway, I'm not sure who'd end up the more populous of the two between Ireland and *Scotland, but I'd bet on the latter by at least a slight amount due to the fact that it's bigger, and IIRC has both a larger urban population by this point and more resources (again, though, not by a massive amount). Mostly, all I ask is that the Celts don't limit themselves to the frigid North Atlantic in terms of trading posts and colonies, since that's also kinda really deterministic (not to mention the fact that neither Portugal nor the Netherlands were so crippled by geography as to limit the scope of their colonies, and Ireland/Scotland if anything seems just as well-poised to establish far-flung colonies as in Iberia).

 

[Jord839]

-It could go either way depending on that middle class' growth pattern, but there's a complication about Gaelic becoming the language of commerce; the only other people outside Alba who'd speak it are the Irish, not so much the English, *Dutch, Danish, Bretons, etc. who they'd also be trading with. That doesn't mean Scottish Gaelic can't become the language of half-to-most of the country's population (I'd personally rather a 50/50 split, mostly because I'm really interested in seeing what a Germanic language with a massive Celtic superstrate would look like), but it does mean they'll have to develop a tradition of multilingualism. And that's before any religious wars enter the picture, which may swing things one way or another more drastically than the way things would develop otherwise, IMO, due to the possibility of associating one language with a religious sect.

I meant more in terms of domestic usage. After/if a trade tradition is built up, the centers of commerce in the Kingdom which I assume will be around the places of government, will be where people come for nonagricultural jobs and eventual industrialization could increase that. I'm not sure about that though, and you're definitely more of a Scotland expert than I ever will be.

-Just address the Protestant thing first, who said anything about Protestantism in England? I commented that they'd likely interact with the Vatican (and likely Italy by extension) one of a handful of Western European places they'd consider themselves in the sphere of, not that they'd be any more hostile to the Church than OTL.

Timeline in general and earlier comments, not your comment, sorry should have specified. And, to be fair, there's been no indication it will be a Protestant Reformation type conflict instead of a movement towards local/state controlled-churches.

Anyway, I'm not sure who'd end up the more populous of the two between Ireland and *Scotland, but I'd bet on the latter by at least a slight amount due to the fact that it's bigger, and IIRC has both a larger urban population by this point and more resources (again, though, not by a massive amount). Mostly, all I ask is that the Celts don't limit themselves to the frigid North Atlantic in terms of trading posts and colonies, since that's also kinda really deterministic (not to mention the fact that neither Portugal nor the Netherlands were so crippled by geography as to limit the scope of their colonies, and Ireland/Scotland if anything seems just as well-poised to establish far-flung colonies as in Iberia).

Seems reasonable that Scotland would end up the more populous. What do you think would be the most likely development for Scotland as far as trade and colonization would be?

 

[FleetMac]

I meant more in terms of domestic usage. After/if a trade tradition is built up, the centers of commerce in the Kingdom which I assume will be around the places of government, will be where people come for nonagricultural jobs and eventual industrialization could increase that. I'm not sure about that though, and you're definitely more of a Scotland expert than I ever will be.

I think this will definitely lead to a bolstered Gaelic-speaking urban population, sort of a reversal of OTL where the outer Highlands and Hebrides are where the tongue is spoken the most. Another reason why I personally support the 50/50 mix is that there's a higher "recharge" capacity for the Anglophone populace, in that they share an easily cross-able land border with England. If there's any migration going on, it's gonna favor the ones with the larger population base, which lies to the south. Of course, that's once the Industrial age comes along, so a temporary Gaelic majority could also work up until then.

Timeline in general and earlier comments, not your comment, sorry should have specified. And, to be fair, there's been no indication it will be a Protestant Reformation type conflict instead of a movement towards local/state controlled-churches.

Ah, I understand. No harm, no foul. I'm not sure where religion will lead to be honest, and at this point I think trying to guess without TLP's input might be a tad premature (I'm mostly addressing myself over this point ).

Seems reasonable that Scotland would end up the more populous. What do you think would be the most likely development for Scotland as far as trade and colonization would be?

The Scots, as far as I can tell, got along pretty well with basic commodity trades during their brief colonial period in OTL, maybe an expanded/more successful version of that (minus the Darien Scheme, of course) could work. Ireland I see being more far-flung in establishing outposts in places such as the West Indies or Africa, given they won't have the numbers to make a settler colony for some time unless they really sink efforts into a single location and stick with it.

 

[ramones1986]

So in short, Early Scots ITTL will confine to Lothians?

 

[Jord839]

I think this will definitely lead to a bolstered Gaelic-speaking urban population, sort of a reversal of OTL where the outer Highlands and Hebrides are where the tongue is spoken the most. Another reason why I personally support the 50/50 mix is that there's a higher "recharge" capacity for the Anglophone populace, in that they share an easily cross-able land border with England. If there's any migration going on, it's gonna favor the ones with the larger population base, which lies to the south. Of course, that's once the Industrial age comes along, so a temporary Gaelic majority could also work up until then.

Exactly. 50/50 or slight majority for either seems like the most likely situation ITTL. If Scotland's going to stay united, it's going to have to take a page from the TTL Anglo-Saxon book and respect internal diversity and multilingualism to an extent.

Ah, I understand. No harm, no foul. I'm not sure where religion will lead to be honest, and at this point I think trying to guess without TLP's input might be a tad premature (I'm mostly addressing myself over this point ).

I might be jumping to conclusions, but TLP made a comment a while back about "Germanic peoples holding grudges for a very long time" and the state-controlled church in part of Norway. Just hoping that it isn't too similar to OTL, I've seen a lot of non-Norman England TL's that build up the anti-Papist angle from the 1100's unbroken into the future or have it kick-start an earlier Protestant Reformation in the same places as OTL.

Given that IOTL even the Catholic Monarchs of Spain more or less took the Church in Spain under their de facto control, and movements to do the same in even the most Catholic areas of the HRE and France, a hypothetical change in the nature of Catholicism has more possibilities than just the "Latin v. Germanic/Catholic v. Protestant" divide of OTL is my point.

The Scots, as far as I can tell, got along pretty well with basic commodity trades during their brief colonial period in OTL, maybe an expanded/more successful version of that (minus the Darien Scheme, of course) could work. Ireland I see being more far-flung in establishing outposts in places such as the West Indies or Africa, given they won't have the numbers to make a settler colony for some time unless they really sink efforts into a single location and stick with it.

Thinking about it now, there's also the fact that Ireland shares no land borders with anyone and will in time be centralized on the island, which will give them more money and resources to focus solely on the navy. That'll mean they can project further for outposts, but won't have the tradition or resources for large and difficult to defend land borders. Yeah, I think your idea makes the most sense.

 

[TheLordProtector]

Okay, you guys have had a really nice discussion all on your own, and I really want to respond to all of it, but unfortunately a lot relates to the future of this TL which I am kinda hoping to keep somewhat secret for the moment. So, I will give you a few cryptic answers. In terms of settler colonies, first of all, just remember that those were the result of some very specific circumstances in the earliest history of colonialism encouraging conquest and settlement. Those will almost certainly not happen ITTL. In terms of a *Protestant reformation, I turn to Luther himself; "To gather with God's people in united adoration of the Father is as necessary to the Christian life as is prayer." This doesn't mean that your united adoration has to include the Bishop of Rome.

I'm sure that doesn't answer any questions, but I hope it gives some good hints. Update coming down the pipeline!

 

[TheLordProtector]

Excerpt from Descendants of the Hundred Battles: A History of Éire​

Diarmait was now faced with the difficult decision of whether or not to sacrifice the brave Eirish defending the Innse Gall for the consolidation of his own power. In the few royal chronicles that survive from the time(1), Diarmait is described as becoming haggard and withdrawn during this period; it is these chronicles that make Diarmait's exceptional personality clear(2). Even in these primitive times, when the concept of a unified, nationally rather than simply culturally distinct Éire was a distant glimmer in the future, King Diarmait felt personally responsible for the deaths of his loyal subjects--for the deaths of every Eirish under his rule. It has been argued successfully by many scholars that Diarmait's drastic actions towards the old noble families was not due to any mere lust for power but instead a deeply sincere desire for a unified Éire. Under his control, naturally, but a nation nevertheless.

In the end, whether it was for power or unification that Diarmait fought, it was that desire that won out. The king moved northwest, towards Tyrone, choosing mainland Éire before the Celtic fringe in the Narrow Sea(3). In the beginnings of summer, Diarmait achieved a major victory over the northern Ui Neill at Sidheán(4) in the east of Tyrone, capturing Aed Ui Neill's son and heir, also called Aed(5). It was here that Diarmait demonstrated his furiously vengeful side; rather than simply beheading the young man as was his usual wont, the High King turned to the old ways and ordered that young Aed suffer the threefold death(6), famously stating that "as impious Aedh Dub mac Suibni(7) before him, so shall this black-heart Ui Neill(8)". According, young Aed was pierced in the neck and the stomach with a spear, then hung from a tree by the neck, but cut down before he had choked to death, and finally tied up with heavy stones and flung into the Narrow Sea.

This act was perhaps Diarmait's greatest mistake. Not only had the Ui Neill lost any semblance of etiquette in their war against the High King, but even his own subjects began whispering dissent. Notable among these was Toirdelbach Ui Briain, who was finally beginning to lose the confidence he had had in Diarmait's rule, and was coming into his own as the head of the Ui Briain. This would latterly be his downfall(9). Diarmait's campaign against the Ui Neill reached its zenith just before the first snows of 1071, at the Battle of Inis Ceithleann(10), Aed's capital. The Ui Neill, despite fighting desperately for their survival, were overwhelmed by Diarmait's superior forces. Aed himself perished in the battle, and his family received the same treatment that the other Ui Neills had; beheading. This, however, did not end the Ui Neill. They would remain a problem for Diarmait's dynasty for many years to come.

As peace settled over the country, Diarmait ensured that peace also came to the Narrow Sea. The Eirish garrisons in the Innse Gall had finally fallen, and so too had any hope of retaining the islands. The High King, though he direly wished to bring Maol Chaluim(11) to justice for his actions, was a practical man, and knew that he could not win. And so he surrendered his islands for peace, lest the war come to his homeland. And so an uncomfortable peace settled over the Celtic fringe of the Isles...
​

Notes
(1) That's right, royal chronicles. They do exist in Ireland, even IOTL, they're just rare.
(2) And now we get a bit of propaganda. Diarmait is an exceptional man, it's true, but he's not exactly a nationalist.
(3) Another ITTL term for the Irish Sea.
(4) Today's Sion Mills, a village south of Strabane in County Tyrone, Northern Ireland.
(5) A fictional character; there's sparse records on the Ui Neill at this time.
(6) In which a victim is killed three times, usually as a result of some karmic justice. An exclusively Indo-European theme.
(7) Aedh the Black, a mythohistorical king of Cruthin who slew a High King and was irregularly ordained as a priest, and thus suffered the threefold death.
(8) Black-heart, cause Aedh the Black? Geddit?
(9) Hinting!
(10) IOTL's Enniskillen, a small town in Fermanagh in Northern Ireland.
(11) The Gaelic name for Malcolm.

 

[Ed Costello]

Unified Ireland? Ooh, tasty. Not sure Diarmait can hold it together in the short term, or build something that lasts beyond his lifetime, but it has good implications for the future.

The Narrow Sea seems an... odd name for the Irish Sea, though. Understandable for St George's Channel, slightly less so for the North Channel... but the Irish Sea itself? I dunno, just seems odd. Is that a historical term?

Lovely to see this continue, as ever!

 

[Draeger]

This timeline's kinda wank-y. Just kinda all over. Interesting though! Excellent writing style (I'm starting to emulate you, LordProtector, for my own source-writing). Subbed!

 

[TheLordProtector]

Unified Ireland? Ooh, tasty. Not sure Diarmait can hold it together in the short term, or build something that lasts beyond his lifetime, but it has good implications for the future.

The Narrow Sea seems an... odd name for the Irish Sea, though. Understandable for St George's Channel, slightly less so for the North Channel... but the Irish Sea itself? I dunno, just seems odd. Is that a historical term?

Lovely to see this continue, as ever!

Well, it's not exactly unified; but Tara is finally under the High King's direct control for the first time in centuries, and he controls more or less personally a thick strip of land from Laighin (Leinster) to the west of Ulster, which is much more than any High King since the mythic ones. He and his descendents will (spoiler!) be able to more or less hold these personal lands and increase their power in Ireland; it'll be a long, hard road to final unification though. Think of this period of Irish history as almost parallel to contemporary France, with the almost complete absence of royal power outside of his own lands.

As for the Narrow Sea, well, it just sounded nice to me. I see what you mean, though. I've seen some chroniclers refer to it as such, but I might change it. Now that I look back at it, I don't like it as much. Thanks for commenting as always!

This timeline's kinda wank-y. Just kinda all over. Interesting though! Excellent writing style (I'm starting to emulate you, LordProtector, for my own source-writing). Subbed!

What do you mean by wank-y, exactly? If you mean that things are going generally better, which is what I think you mean, well, remember that Norway remains weaker and divided, France is collapsing under its own weight into a bloody civil war, Normandy has been completely and brutally devastated, while there's almost certainly going to be even greater conflict between church and state (not *Protestant and Catholic, by the way, but firmly church and state) than IOTL. So things aren't exactly peachy, but they are a LOT better for the peoples of the British Isles and the cultural diversity of Europe.

Thanks for commenting, by the way. I just started reading Precarious Heights, and it looks very interesting!

 

[Draeger]

What do you mean by wank-y, exactly? If you mean that things are going generally better, which is what I think you mean, well, remember that Norway remains weaker and divided, France is collapsing under its own weight into a bloody civil war, Normandy has been completely and brutally devastated, while there's almost certainly going to be even greater conflict between church and state (not *Protestant and Catholic, by the way, but firmly church and state) than IOTL. So things aren't exactly peachy, but they are a LOT better for the peoples of the British Isles and the cultural diversity of Europe.

Thanks for commenting, by the way. I just started reading Precarious Heights, and it looks very interesting!

THANKS!!! It's my first TL and I appreciate the praise! I'm thankful to bask in the glow of everyone else's Timelines/writing styles/etc while I try to at least meet that standard with my own.

And yes, that is what I meant---better for the Isles and Brittany, most certainly. I should have considered France and the Papacy in framing my arguably weak response (really a cursory post as an excuse to subscribe). I admit, I have nothing to add or contribute to the discussion. My knowledge of this time period (mid-11th century) is limited at best and superficial at worst ('uhh the Great Schism, Hastings, Manzikert and the Papal-Imperial conflict, right?').

Might I mention that you painted a pretty nice picture of Norway---I mean come on, Magnus is still alive, right? They'll work it out, I'm sure. I'm biased against France so I'm happy to see them fall, or at least have a really hard time, early on. And I'm always happy to see a weakened Medieval Church (even though I myself am Catholic!), so perhaps that's why I neglected those 'little details' in my one-sentence-critique (hardly a fair critique---things are pretty 'wanky' in my TL right now, too).

 

[PistolSO]

Glad to see an update, although I know almost next to nothing about Ireland in this period, and I had to wince at how vengeful this Diarmalt is. The hints of a stronger than OTL Ireland are encouraging though.

 

[TheLordProtector]

-snip-

Hehe, I apologize, I probably came off a bit harsher than I meant to. I'm not that good with criticism. But no, I do see where you're coming from. As a side question, what do you know about eastern Europe around these times? I know it's typecasting to a certain extent to assume you'd know about the area, but you know, I was hoping. I don't know much you see and I was hoping for a bit of a consultation on future updates.

Glad to see an update, although I know almost next to nothing about Ireland in this period, and I had to wince at how vengeful this Diarmalt is. The hints of a stronger than OTL Ireland are encouraging though.

Oh, yes, Diarmait's reign and those of many of his successors will be blood-stained indeed. The Ui Ceinnselaig (or Kinsella, I'm still mulling over which is aesthetically more pleasing and will be used in future) is a dynasty forged of blood and gold.