Create a POD from 1400 onward to help Byzantium survive

libbrit

Banned
Im not looking for the empire saving as a massive unit, because by this stage, i think its beyond saving, but some form of Byzantine state, centred around Constantinople, and perhaps its immediate hinterland, post 1453

It doesnt have to be a state in any good condition, but it DOES need to survive as an independent, non ottoman entity with an emperor/monarch
 

Lalli

I think that survival of Eastern Roman Empire is impossible on this time. Ottomans had conquered large areas from Balkans and Anatolia and Constantinopole was quiet alone. Or one way could be that emperor accept being vassal of Ottoman sultan but is this very plausible.
 

libbrit

Banned
Well, its for a mapgame starting in the year 1400. Ideally, I just want to retain the position of emperor and the existance of some sort of semi autonomy (which I suppose a vassal relationship would do), so that the concept of Byzantium survives centuries as a nominal part of the ottoman empire-much like Greece (infact if an orthodox polity with a monarch descended from the emperors based in Constantinople survived, would that survive as a larger sense of Greek identity, meaning that when the empire collapses, Greece included Constantinople and perhaps called itself Byzantium?)

In the 1400s, the main event I need to engineer is something that avoids the sack of Constantinople and allows a relatively peaceful vassalship to emerge.

Thoughts?
 
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Basileus Giorgios

The Greeks more or less did as well as is possible out of the Ottoman defeat of 1402- regaining Thessalonica and a big chunk of Thrace, and having tribute paid to them for about a decade by the Ottoman Sultan, who acknowledged the Emperor Manuel II as his overlord. That's pretty good going for the post-1350 state, I think.

If the Ottomans collapse altogether, a survival of some sort is an outside possibility, but the cards are stacked firmly against Constantinople, and it's more likely than not that if a new Turkish group doesn't take the City, the Italians will.
 

maidros

Lalli said:
I think that survival of Eastern Roman Empire is impossible on this time. Ottomans had conquered large areas from Balkans and Anatolia and Constantinopole was quiet alone. Or one way could be that emperor accept being vassal of Ottoman sultan but is this very plausible.
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The only problem with that is Constantinople's strategically vital location. No Ottoman emperor is content to leave the city in the hands of an infidel vassal. What the Ottomans might be willing to do is exchange Constantinople for another location with the emperor (with the emperor being an Ottoman vassal, of course). How acceptable this is to the Byzantine empire is not something I can pretend to know about.
 

Tongera

Basileus Giorgios said:
The Greeks more or less did as well as is possible out of the Ottoman defeat of 1402- regaining Thessalonica and a big chunk of Thrace, and having tribute paid to them for about a decade by the Ottoman Sultan, who acknowledged the Emperor Manuel II as his overlord. That's pretty good going for the post-1350 state, I think.

If the Ottomans collapse altogether, a survival of some sort is an outside possibility, but the cards are stacked firmly against Constantinople, and it's more likely than not that if a new Turkish group doesn't take the City, the Italians will.
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1. I suppose a Ottoman collapse will help Byzantium survive. Maybe the other Balkan states under Ottoman control become independent again?

2. I suppose either the Genoans or the Venetians will take it? They have the means to blockade it by sea, but what about by land?

maidros said:
The only problem with that is Constantinople's strategically vital location. No Ottoman emperor is content to leave the city in the hands of an infidel vassal. What the Ottomans might be willing to do is exchange Constantinople for another location with the emperor (with the emperor being an Ottoman vassal, of course). How acceptable this is to the Byzantine empire is not something I can pretend to know about.
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A Roman Emperor abandoning the city instead of defending it? Isn't acceptable as far as I know.
 

QuoProQuid

libbrit said:
Im not looking for the empire saving as a massive unit, because by this stage, i think its beyond saving, but some form of Byzantine state, centred around Constantinople, and perhaps its immediate hinterland, post 1453

It doesnt have to be a state in any good condition, but it DOES need to survive as an independent, non ottoman entity with an emperor/monarch
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Emperor Constantine XI accepts Mehmed's offer to leave Constantinople. The Byzantine Empire continues to exist in its Aegean and Propontis territories as a de facto vassal of the Ottoman Empire.

That is probably the best you are going to get.
 

Basileus Giorgios

QuoProQuid said:
Emperor Constantine XI accepts Mehmed's offer to leave Constantinople. The Byzantine Empire continues to exist in its Aegean and Propontis territories as a de facto vassal of the Ottoman Empire.

That is probably the best you are going to get.
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These will be certainly be mopped up by a post Mehmed Sultan, though, in the way that say Rhodes was.
 

QuoProQuid

Basileus Giorgios said:
These will be certainly be mopped up by a post Mehmed Sultan, though, in the way that say Rhodes was.
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I certainly agree. The best these territories can hope for is another 100 years before the Ottomans come knocking. Given the parameters set by the opening post, though, this seems the Byzantines likeliest chance for surviving past 1453.
 

maidros

If the emperor escapes the fall of Constantinople to Trebizond or one of the small holdings in Greece, could he survive there as ruler but as an Ottoman vassal?
 

QuoProQuid

leadpipe said:
What if the Byzantines agreed to reunite with the Catholic church?
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Pope sends out a token force to support the Byzantines and the citizens of Constantinople open the gates to let the Ottomans in? Maybe he can grant the Emperor one of the Palaces in Rome when the situation looks untenable.

Sort of a Reverse Vatican City if you will.
 
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libbrit

Banned
QuoProQuid said:
Pope sends out a token force to support the Byzantines? Maybe he can grant the Emperor one of the Palaces in Rome when the situation looks untenable.

Sort of a Reverse Vatican City if you will.
Click to expand...


How about the Byzantines agree to hand over Constantinople on the agreement that the Orthodox hierarchy, and the Emperor, are permitted to remain in possession of the Hagia Sophia and a few palaces-a Vatican type thing, in order to provide spiritual solace to the population and maintain stability, which the sultan would probably prefer.

Basically, the empire is surrendered in terms of territory, but the emperor survives in its rulers, transformed into a religious role
 

QuoProQuid

libbrit said:
How about the Byzantines agree to hand over Constantinople on the agreement that the Orthodox hierarchy, and the Emperor, are permitted to remain in possession of the Hagia Sophia and a few palaces-a Vatican type thing, in order to provide spiritual solace to the population and maintain stability, which the sultan would probably prefer.

Basically, the empire is surrendered in terms of territory, but the emperor survives in its rulers, transformed into a religious role
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Much like the island solution posted earlier, this will satisfy Mehmed and some heirs. However, the status quo is not sustainable in the long term. The Byzantine Emperor is a symbol to the Greeks and a direct threat to Ottoman superiority in Istanbul. In order to consolidate their hold the Byzantines will eventually have to go.
 

Avitus

This is pretty much the exact subject of my TL (in my sig). Basically you need an Ottoman civil war, a successful Balkan crusade, and a capable Byzantine Emperor. Manuel II had two (the first and third), and it wasn't quite enough.

In my TL they get all three, but are still dominated and subjected by one of the crusading powers for about a decade and a half upon Constantine XI's death. They eventually break free of foreign influence, and manage to inherit control of Bulgaria and Macedonia in the process, giving them roughly the territory of Modern Greece, European Turkey, and Bulgaria by 1485. As of now they are being given some payback by the resurgent Ottomans, who are backing a claimant from the line of Thomas Palaiologos, and the Venetians, who made a killing in the crusade that allowed the Byzantines to survive, and are attempting to sieze the remaining Byzantine Aegean Islands. Other peoples who notably have done better in the Balkans are the Hungarians, Knights of Rhodes, Serbia, Wallachia, and the Empire of Trebizond.
 

QuoProQuid

One of the most issues you have to be aware of when talking about the late Byzantine Empire is how much Constantinople had degraded by 1453. The days of her being the Queen of Cities was long gone. Large parts of the city were unreachable because the streets had collapsed, others had been sold to Venetian trading families and many buildings had been demolished to make way for farm land.

The estimated population of Constantinople just prior to its conquest was less than 10,000. Even if you somehow solve the Ottoman problem, the Empire was dying from other causes.
 
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