The Italian invasion of Greece is pretty widely maligned as an utter catastrophe, and not without reason. However, I'm curious if there was any way the invasion could've gone even worse. Such as Italy losing more people, the Greeks getting further into Albania, or some other catastrophe occurring that Germany has to bail them out of.
Could the Italians have failed harder in Greece?
Clint Beastwood
Banned
Replace their guns with pizza. But even then you'll be hard pressed to do worse than OTL
nbcman
Donor
If there was better winter weather in December 1940-January 1941, the Greeks could have pushed farther into Albania. Also, if the British decided to send supplies rather than troops and aircraft to Greece, maybe the Germans would not have invaded Greece at all. The Italians would have been stuck trying to pry the Greeks out of Albania for many more months even with Bulgarian assistance.
Hitler dies prior to Barbarossa, Goering takes charge and refuses to either a) invade the Soviets and b) bail out Benito as the Greeks push Italian forces into the Adriatic Sea.
Have Britain and France have a better and earlier rearmament - with Aircraft and AFV Production increased over OTL
This means that the Entente nations with their improved stock of un-needed older planes can - pre-war or possibly even during the Phoney war period 'sell' older Aircraft like the M.S.406 and early Hurricanes as well as older AFVs like the R35s and Matlida 1s/Mk VI light tanks to Nations like Belgium, Netherlands, Norway and in this case Greece.
This means that the Entente nations with their improved stock of un-needed older planes can - pre-war or possibly even during the Phoney war period 'sell' older Aircraft like the M.S.406 and early Hurricanes as well as older AFVs like the R35s and Matlida 1s/Mk VI light tanks to Nations like Belgium, Netherlands, Norway and in this case Greece.
They might do better than OTL, with pizza distracting Greek soldiers at the crucial moment.
There's plenty of ways for the Italian operations to go worse, but just preventing the German intervention isn't one of them. By the time the Germans entered the fray, the frontlines had stopped and any further movement would have been in the direction of the Greek border.
There would have been a worldwide shortage of Humus and Tzatziki. It would have caused a worldwide double dip depression.
I'll get me coat.
I'll get me coat.
I think Churchill wanted Yugoslavia to come into the war on the British & Greek side and to attack the Italians in Albania in their rear...
If Churchill could have actually somehow got the Yugoslavians to do that before the Germans were ready to intervene, the Italians might not have at all enjoyed it.
Have the Greeks get lucky and break through and surround a few Italian divisions, that'd definitely lead to a worse Italian performance.
Ok how old a POD are we allowed? Have the 1935 republican coup succeed and all other things being equal the Greek army is fielding 22 divisions to 15 of OTL and better led on top of that, Papagos wasn't exactly the best and brightest the army had at the time, rather the best and brightest the Royalists had at his rank. Move the POD to August 1940 and Metaxas agreeing to mobilise two corps and the initial invasion is met by 6 divisions instead of a single reinforced division in Epirus and another one in Western Macedonia and the Greeks have the forces in place to launch an offensive towards Korytza at D+1 or D+2 instead of D+17... at which point there are only two Italian divisions to meet an attack instead of four and when they are forced back it put's the Greek right into the rear of the attack against Epirus. Stick to a post October 28th POD and have Papagos press harder the initial success at Korytza, which could have fallen from November 19th before the Italians could somewhat reorganize and bring reinforcements from Italy and then put the main effort in the Greek right to try rolling the Italian left flank instead of pivoting on the right and attacking frontally on the left and centre, which granted might had been slightly more safe against Italian armor and retrieving occupied territory first but on the other hand was slower and less likely to produce decisive results.
FillyofDelphi
Banned
Perhaps have the Italians attempt a coup de main via an amphibious or paratrooper attempt to seize Athens right at the start of the war? Though they desire it as a prestige and flanking move, bungling such a logistically and tactically complex maneuver would be more than likely, given Italian generalship and lack of troop training/experience, resulting in the embarrassing destruction/capture of a large number of specialist troops.
If the RHN had more or better subs, they'd have played hell with Italian logistics. Each slowdown causes a ripple effect further down the line. The Greeks had some aircraft rated as torpedo capable, use them in that role to attack shipping in Albanian ports or close to the coast. While nighttime flight ops are extremely dangerous, courage was the one resource the Greeks had in abundance. In OTL the RHN attempted a raid or two with DD against Italian convoys, without meeting any. If they succeed with one or both, the RM will be under pressure to utilize heavier and or more numerous surface escorts, which detracts from the forces needed to counter the RN, etc etc. More ripple effects.
Lascaris, do you have any English language source recommendations? I've only a couple of books and what I can find online. You know more about this than I so I'd appreciate any tips you may have.
Regards, Bill
Carr is the latest available in English I think https://www.amazon.com/Defence-Fall-Greece-1940-41/dp/1781591814. Stocking's Swastika over the Acropolis is excellent but covers mostly the German invasion and is... shall we say pricey. Then there is An Abridged History of the Greek–Italian and Greek–German War 1940–1941 b the Greek army history directorate. Which if you manage to buy directly costs less than 6 euros... but it presupposes being able to buy directly, they do have contact details in English here https://dis.army.gr/en/contact-us but no way to order electronically that I know of.
If the RN subs had been turned lose on the Italian supply convoys you'd get an even greater effect, but for that to happen there'd need to be more British Subs in the region.
I have both of Carr's works (Defence and Fall, and On Spartan Wings) and just finished Defence and Fall a couple days ago. Wonderfully written, gives a much better appreciation of the conflict. I shall see what I can do with the abridged history, THANKS!
Yeah, it would take truly exceptional luck for that, given the realities of the terrain, logistics, weather and average unit speed of both sides.