Could the Chtorr series be continuing at long last?

[mojojojo]

I just got the following link sent to me via email
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0765340380/ref=pe_11480_16819110_emwa_email_tit\
le_1

 

[DG Valdron]

After all these years, I'm not even sure its going to be the same series that I read.

Hell, after all these years, I'm not the same guy who read them.

I fear that after massively long delayed sequel-itis, the world might have moved on, and what was once fresh and brilliant is now cliched and lustreless.

 

[mojojojo]

Ok, now you have got me depressed. I wonder what took him so long. I know he was raising a kid with special needs,but that didn't stop him from working on other projects

 

[DG Valdron]

Oops. Sorry. Didn't mean to bum you out.

 

[Sovereign12]

Ok, now you have got me depressed. I wonder what took him so long. I know he was raising a kid with special needs,but that didn't stop him from working on other projects

I think he was having allot of problems with issues of Ownership Rights to some of his stuff. Yet, I think the main reason is he just didn't know where to go with it.

 

[tormsen]

I only managed to get halfway through the first book. I found the writing pretty terrible, though I loved the ideas. I might have been spoiled by reading the GURPS War Against the Chtorr setting book first, so I already knew most of the awesome.

 

[mailinutile2]

I only managed to get halfway through the first book. I found the writing pretty terrible, though I loved the ideas. I might have been spoiled by reading the GURPS War Against the Chtorr setting book first, so I already knew most of the awesome.

Read the fourth.
It is faaaaar better

 

[PipBoy2999]

Well, finally. A book I first read when I was 16! and now, at 41, I'll be able to continue. Farking shite.

I'm afraid he's writen himself into a corner. Things are so bad that, without resorting to deux ex machina, things are just fucked for good old planet Earth.

As I understood the history behind things, his publishing rights had gotten buggered up, so he couldn't pursue the story and so didn't bother to write. Lazy ass. He needs to work on his Star Wolf series too.

 

[mailinutile2]

Well, finally. A book I first read when I was 16! and now, at 41, I'll be able to continue. Farking shite.

I'm afraid he's writen himself into a corner. Things are so bad that, without resorting to deux ex machina, things are just fucked for good old planet Earth.

As I understood the history behind things, his publishing rights had gotten buggered up, so he couldn't pursue the story and so didn't bother to write. Lazy ass. He needs to work on his Star Wolf series too.

has he gone beyond the second book of the Star Wolf serie?
I really cannot stand his Elevator serie

 

[mojojojo]

Well, finally. A book I first read when I was 16! and now, at 41, I'll be able to continue. Farking shite.

I'm afraid he's writen himself into a corner. Things are so bad that, without resorting to deux ex machina, things are just fucked for good old planet Earth.

As I understood the history behind things, his publishing rights had gotten buggered up, so he couldn't pursue the story and so didn't bother to write. Lazy ass. He needs to work on his Star Wolf series too.

Given that many of us here have read the series, what do you think the guiding intelligence behind the invasion is, or is there one?

 

[Sovereign12]

Given that many of us here have read the series, what do you think the guiding intelligence behind the invasion is, or is there one?

I know you didn't ask me, but I have a feeling that it is going to be the whole ecology as a collective. It won't espouse an intelligence like humans, but be more dispersed. In a way the infestation of the Earth is the Chtorrian Ecologies version of a child.

Starts small with microscopic life (the various pandemics), moves to insects and small creatures, and up to the more self aware creatures, yet never true individual intelligence. The microbes are the embryo, Insects the fetal stage, Bunnydogs and such as babies, the worms as toddlers,...etc.

 

[DG Valdron]

Given that many of us here have read the series, what do you think the guiding intelligence behind the invasion is, or is there one?

Well, I think that there obviously has to be some sort of long range (light years quality) detection system for the Chtorr to identify stars with habitable planets, or at least stars with the right qualities of stability and age to possibly have planets which support Chtorran life.

I see no evolutionary utility to such a stargazing mechanism, so the only recourse I see is that somewhere in the Chtorran ecology there is a discrete intelligence motivated by something resembling curiousity - ie, that seeks to accumulate data for which there is no immediate application or purpose.

And for the Chtorran ecology to invade, it has to be able to identify Earth, or at least Stars likely to support Earth type worlds. If it's just firing off biological packets randomly, then the chances are infinitesimal that any will ever reach another world, they'll all freeze for billions of years in the void. If it just randomly fires off at stars, the vast majority of these biological packages will end up wasted, and the Chtorran ecological package seems to be extremely elaborate and expensive. Essentially, the Chtorrans export a complete ecology, possibly several ecologies.

Getting from star system to star system also seems to be a huge leap. I don't see how the Chtorrans can escape a gravity well, where's the evolutionary imperative, how does incremental steps get you out of a gravity well, targeting a star in deep space and getting there.

Maybe they come through some kind of space warp. But that still leaves the unresolved questions.

The fact that they're here indicates that at some level there's an abstract intelligence.

 

[Petros >Peter Fergus<]

If you like the setting, but can't get through the writing, try to find a copy of the GURPS Chtorr sourcebook. It's a setting book for the GURPS RPG system, and includes all sorts of material on the world, the species, and so on. It was my first encounter with Chtorr, and while a bit spoiler-y, it encouraged me to read the actual books.


As for the Chtorr getting off-world; Larry Niven has such a thing as 'Stage Trees' in his Known Space setting. They are trees that produce solid rocket fuel in their trunks. It's not beyond possibility that the Chtorr could use something like this to propagate itself to other planets. If the pod they send to establish themselves on other worlds is quite small, and quite sturdy, they could launch thousands upon thousands in all directions, thousands headed slowly towards a star, and then landing on a planet there, if there is one. The information required to make all the ecology of the Chtorr could be very compressed compared to our DNA.

 

[Sovereign12]

I agree with Petros. Spores could be the seeds for the ecology. Many species of plants and animals already produce millions and millions of spores in the biological hope that some will survive. When spores dry out they compact the DNA down tightly and the coating is very tough and resilient to outside influences.

We already see that the Chtorran Ecology is probably a gestalt one. Bunnydogs, Bunnymen, and Libbies are all one species. It wouldn't surprise me if all the Chtorran species came from one spore type. The Chtorr ecology is much more interdependent/commensal with the other parts, I would say it would be better to look at the Chtorran Species as the tissues and organs of the "Ecology". While individual species have a level of sentience comparable to Earth species, I would say they are not sapient.

 

[PipBoy2999]

Given that many of us here have read the series, what do you think the guiding intelligence behind the invasion is, or is there one?

Having studied these books a few hundred times, I have come to a conclusion about what the Chtorran infestation really is.

I think that the Chtorran invasion is a pan-spermia phenomena with shambler trees as the prime source of the invasion. In The Season For Slaughter, McCarthy and company investigate a stable shambler mound in Mexico. Within the mound they discover what appears to be a biological factory producing components of the Chtorran ecology, from millipedes to full-on Chtorr worms. One toss away comment by McCarthy was that shambler tree seeds have withstood testing by dropping from orbit.

Hypothetical planet Chtorr, supposedly at least a half billion years further along the evolutionary chain, and within a suspected 30 light years of Earth, is spewing shambler tree seeds in all directions. Some fell to Earth and started the cycle, but I don't think there's any reason not to suspect that even the planet Chtorr might not have been an invader ecology. Perhaps the Chtorran infestation has been spreading throughout the Orion arm and it's just now reached Sol? The prisoner/rescuee picked up towards the end of TSFS exhibits some of the ways that the Earthian ecology will be adapted to Chtorran ecology - which goes back to the pan-spermia idea. Perhaps the shambler trees were first, but as they proceed through different ecologies, they pick up different biological samples and incorporate them into a synergistic whole.

Regardless, whether or not there's an intelligent species directing the infestation is irrelevent. I think what the Chtorr ecology demonstrates is that intelligence is not the final word in evolutionary survival. Several species of Chtorrans have exhibited various degrees of intelligence and ability to communicate, yet remain in some ways dictated by their instincts and position within the Chtorran ecology. Bunnydogs, bunnymen, meeps, and worms have demonstrated the ability to conceptualize, plan, react to stimuli, and communicate. However, intelligence for intelligence's sake seems to be missing and, perhaps, is really an evolutionary dead end.

I suspect the only solution that really is viable is sterilization of the planet and repopulation from the gene banks and reserved populations on the Moon and L4/L5. I truely hope he doesn't resolve the issue by 'remodulating the beeping machine on deck nine to save the day by the end of the episode.' Be kind of an interesting ending if the human race is driven off world completely and Earth becomes an alien planet. Depressing, but would be different.

 

[Sovereign12]

Be kind of an interesting ending if the human race is driven off world completely and Earth becomes an alien planet. Depressing, but would be different.

I got the impression humans abandoned Earth, when reading the Starwolf novels. The one book mentions worms invading the Earth.

 

[DG Valdron]

I don't think you're appreciating just how big space is.

Given the volumes involved, that sort of random seeding approach would take trillions of years. You'd need a volume of basic spore packets bigger than jupiter to find a habitable world by sheer luck within ten or twenty light years.

 

[Sovereign12]

It doesn't matter how large the galaxy is (I cannot see it being extragalactic). If the Ecology has a type of sentience it may have developed the ability to detect stars of the correct class, it wouldn't be infeasible for it to develop species to launch spores towards that star in the hopes of propagating itself on a possible earth-type planet. Life always tries to survive and propagate if it can.

Of course, this may be the real reason Gerrold has taken so long to write a new book; "He may not have been able to think of anything past the stage he had the ecology at in the previous book". Or, it could actually be Emperor Ming borrowing the Death Star to seed the planet Earth with his evil Seeds of Doom (aka...the typical invading aliens)

 

[DG Valdron]

Having studied these books a few hundred times, I have come to a conclusion about what the Chtorran infestation really is.

I think that the Chtorran invasion is a pan-spermia phenomena with shambler trees as the prime source of the invasion. In The Season For Slaughter, McCarthy and company investigate a stable shambler mound in Mexico. Within the mound they discover what appears to be a biological factory producing components of the Chtorran ecology, from millipedes to full-on Chtorr worms. One toss away comment by McCarthy was that shambler tree seeds have withstood testing by dropping from orbit.

Hypothetical planet Chtorr, supposedly at least a half billion years further along the evolutionary chain, and within a suspected 30 light years of Earth, is spewing shambler tree seeds in all directions. Some fell to Earth and started the cycle, but I don't think there's any reason not to suspect that even the planet Chtorr might not have been an invader ecology. Perhaps the Chtorran infestation has been spreading throughout the Orion arm and it's just now reached Sol? The prisoner/rescuee picked up towards the end of TSFS exhibits some of the ways that the Earthian ecology will be adapted to Chtorran ecology - which goes back to the pan-spermia idea. Perhaps the shambler trees were first, but as they proceed through different ecologies, they pick up different biological samples and incorporate them into a synergistic whole.

Regardless, whether or not there's an intelligent species directing the infestation is irrelevent. I think what the Chtorr ecology demonstrates is that intelligence is not the final word in evolutionary survival. Several species of Chtorrans have exhibited various degrees of intelligence and ability to communicate, yet remain in some ways dictated by their instincts and position within the Chtorran ecology. Bunnydogs, bunnymen, meeps, and worms have demonstrated the ability to conceptualize, plan, react to stimuli, and communicate. However, intelligence for intelligence's sake seems to be missing and, perhaps, is really an evolutionary dead end.

I suspect the only solution that really is viable is sterilization of the planet and repopulation from the gene banks and reserved populations on the Moon and L4/L5. I truely hope he doesn't resolve the issue by 'remodulating the beeping machine on deck nine to save the day by the end of the episode.' Be kind of an interesting ending if the human race is driven off world completely and Earth becomes an alien planet. Depressing, but would be different.

I'd be interested in seeing if the Chtorran infestation has spread to Mars or Venus, or even to some place like Titan. The Chtorran ecology seems adaptive and reslient. But what are its parameters? Is it simply useful for taking over pre-developed worlds? ie, places with a viable ecosystem already developed? Or does it have some ability to infest and Chtorrform sterile worlds?

 

[DG Valdron]

It doesn't matter how large the galaxy is

I'm afraid it does matter. The distances are inconceivably vast.

Suppose that you were able to travel at one million miles an hour. You could cross the diameter of the sun in an our. Mars and Venus are only about a month, month and a half away at closest approach. The Solar system would take a year or two to get beyond the Oort cloud. It would take you roughly 2600 years to reach the closest star to earth. If the Chtorran world was 30 light years away, it would take roughly 20,000 years to get there.

Supposing you were only doing a hundred thousand miles an hour that means 200,000 years to get to the Chtorran homeworld. Or for them to get to us.

In comparison to the distances involved, the targets would be tiny, if the sun was a speck of dust, the neighboring stars would be miles away.

So there's no chance of just randomly flinging out spores and hoping for the best. If the Chtorr are here, its because something out there searched the skies, found this planet, and decided to come here, and then invested a vast amount of energy to get here.

Space really is colossally, unbelievably vast.

. If the Ecology has a type of sentience it may have developed the ability to detect stars of the correct class, it wouldn't be infeasible for it to develop species to launch spores towards that star in the hopes of propagating itself on a possible earth-type planet. Life always tries to survive and propagate if it can.

Of course, this may be the real reason Gerrold has taken so long to write a new book; "He may not have been able to think of anything past the stage he had the ecology at in the previous book". Or, it could actually be Emperor Ming borrowing the Death Star to seed the planet Earth with his evil Seeds of Doom (aka...the typical invading aliens)[/QUOTE]