Could the British Empire have continued with the American colonies dominating it over Great Britain?

[What if]

On the OP I think even a unified BNA wouldn't end up being 'the driving force'/ I don't see the capitol moving from London to Philadelphia. The British establishment would not support a move and I would contend that many in BNA would prefer having distance from the capitol/metropole since the metropole often attempts to reign in certain actions by the colonies.

With how the discussion has evolved over if a unified big colony would emerge, if I may invoke how Australia became a federation. That was driven by support within the respective colonies though often overlooked now is that it was an open question if Western Australia would join even when it was culturally not distinctive from the other states. I think in a TL in a POD between say the Glorious Revolution and the ARW I do think that certain differences would result in some colonies becoming seperate states. Quebec is a stand out as without the pressure of the US causing OTL Canada to from I think it is likely that it would probably choose to become independent ITTL.

Another standout is the 'southern'/ Slave states/colonies. While there are going to be butterflies such as them not feeling the need to try to create more slave states to match the number of free states I think it is fair to speculate they may revolt when Britain does outlaw slavery ITTL and thus there would presumably be bad blood between them and the other colonies. The other colonies probably wouldn't want to unite with 'traitors' to from a unified nation and the salve colonies probably wouldn't want the oversight of non slave states since they would like the confederacy of OTL probably try to maintain as much of the pre war setup as possible. Though there could be an open question over if they are kept under extended military rule by Britain in their version of reconstruction.

Now over which colonies would merge, I could IMO see much of the NE US plus NY becoming one state. I could also see this state extending west perhaps even to Oregon. I think within OTL Canada Ontario westward may well join with this state. I think the southern extent of this state would be an open question. Since the salve colonies wouldn't feel the pressure to create other slave colonies I think there will be an open question f how many additional slave colonies/state would there be TTL.

 

[Typho]

Edit: for reference, Canadian dainty was considered to be a "Mid-Atlantic" accent, so...like Frasier or Niles (from the show Frasier).

Lol, no wonder they gave of such Anglo vibes, moreso than the actual Englishwoman they had on the show.

Come to think of it, the Mid-Atlantic accent may be considered the prestige English accent.

It's superior to RP.

 

[Dan1988]

It's superior to RP.

Meh, I wouldn't say it was any more or less superior to any other accent. Like many other near-RP or semi-RP dialects, it was a compromise. For Mid-Atlantic English in particular (especially in the semi-codified form as American Theater Standard), it was meant as stage speech when both British and American actors appeared on the same stage so the actors' voices wouldn't sound like a bunch of ping-pongs going all over the place - particularly for certain high literature, like Shakespeare. So it drew from features in both Conspicuous General British (aka traditional/conservative RP) and General American to make it work.

A naturally-developing version of such a near-RP or semi-RP accent would be little different ITTL in terms of its history and formation, though (like with the Boston Brahmins) starting off with a regional accent first rather than any one urban accent. For example, if the "capital" (general administrative center would be a better word) of British America (unity in diversity and all that) is Philadelphia - well, during the 19th century, Philadelphia and New York City seemed to be much closer to each other, dialect-wise, than to their respective states. If you wanted to start sounding posh in the upper-class London manner, the first step towards marking yourself off from the general population is to adopt speech that is not recognizable as being from Philadelphia - and that's part of how General American originated. Many of the features we associate with Midland speech and particularly General American originate from non-coastal areas of eastern Pennsylvania. as well as Upstate New York and western New England. To go further towards making a regional speech become a near-RP or semi-RP, the vowels then can be remapped to kinda sorta approximate RP and the consonants can be adulterated further with elements typically British (e.g. "SHED-jewel" for <schedule>, fully closing/tensing the first vowel in "pro-" words like <project, progress>, etc.,). That would be a good start; all that would need to be done would be to distribute it more widely among the upper classes.

 

[durante]

Meh, I wouldn't say it was any more or less superior to any other accent. Like many other near-RP or semi-RP dialects, it was a compromise. For Mid-Atlantic English in particular (especially in the semi-codified form as American Theater Standard), it was meant as stage speech when both British and American actors appeared on the same stage so the actors' voices wouldn't sound like a bunch of ping-pongs going all over the place - particularly for certain high literature, like Shakespeare. So it drew from features in both Conspicuous General British (aka traditional/conservative RP) and General American to make it work.

A naturally-developing version of such a near-RP or semi-RP accent would be little different ITTL in terms of its history and formation, though (like with the Boston Brahmins) starting off with a regional accent first rather than any one urban accent. For example, if the "capital" (general administrative center would be a better word) of British America (unity in diversity and all that) is Philadelphia - well, during the 19th century, Philadelphia and New York City seemed to be much closer to each other, dialect-wise, than to their respective states. If you wanted to start sounding posh in the upper-class London manner, the first step towards marking yourself off from the general population is to adopt speech that is not recognizable as being from Philadelphia - and that's part of how General American originated. Many of the features we associate with Midland speech and particularly General American originate from non-coastal areas of eastern Pennsylvania. as well as Upstate New York and western New England. To go further towards making a regional speech become a near-RP or semi-RP, the vowels then can be remapped to kinda sorta approximate RP and the consonants can be adulterated further with elements typically British (e.g. "SHED-jewel" for <schedule>, fully closing/tensing the first vowel in "pro-" words like <project, progress>, etc.,). That would be a good start; all that would need to be done would be to distribute it more widely among the upper classes.

Also some grammatical things...like, well...I'll just let Laurence explain...

So even if there are still a variety of accents, removing some of the grammatical and slang vocabulary differences could go a long way toward reducing differences in speech. I can give the example of myself, a Canadian who grew up with a strong Canadian accent, (I grew up in Southern Ontario, halfway between Detroit and Buffalo). After 5 years of living in Australia and New Zealand, and having mostly British friends, my friends from back home think I've adopted a British accent, because I say things like "rubbish bin", although my British friends assure me that I still sound like I arrived from middle America maybe this morning.

The truth is they are both wrong, my accent has gone from quite a noticeable and distinct Canadian accent (the kind that Russell Peters poked fun at, or perhaps the show "Letterkenny", which is based on the town of Listowel, about 20 minutes from my hometown) to an accent that would probably best characterized as "Standard North American news anchor", but with a few grammatical and slang Britishisms.

 

[Typho]

One big positive, is no stupid region codes within the Anglosphere. Absolutely insane for US/Canada to be separate from Britain, while Britain has the same region code as Poland.

 

[Dan1988]

Also some grammatical things...like, well...

Oh, definitely. I'll have to check Skinner and McLean to see if they've gone that route as well. (As context for what I'd see in terms of OTL for Theater Standard, I can't recommend this article highly enough, as it provides a pretty good summary.)

So even if there are still a variety of accents, removing some of the grammatical and slang vocabulary differences could go a long way toward reducing differences in speech. I can give the example of myself, a Canadian who grew up with a strong Canadian accent, (I grew up in Southern Ontario, halfway between Detroit and Buffalo). After 5 years of living in Australia and New Zealand, and having mostly British friends, my friends from back home think I've adopted a British accent, because I say things like "rubbish bin", although my British friends assure me that I still sound like I arrived from middle America maybe this morning.

The truth is they are both wrong, my accent has gone from quite a noticeable and distinct Canadian accent (the kind that Russell Peters poked fun at, or perhaps the show "Letterkenny", which is based on the town of Listowel, about 20 minutes from my hometown) to an accent that would probably best characterized as "Standard North American news anchor", but with a few grammatical and slang Britishisms.

Likewise, as someone from Rhode Island whose accent slightly shifted not just from exposure to British accents on TV, but also going to Catholic high school across the state line (where it turns out I've lived next door to and crossed a dialect boundary for almost my whole life without realizing it; additional academic detail here) and then up to Ottawa for university, which levelled out quite a bit (although I'm gaining some local RI features the longer I stay south of 49). So I have a wide feature pool to choose from within the confines of a regional version of Standard North American news anchor. (Although, to be fair, the Rhode Island accent has long been misunderstood by people who think it's an extension of the Boston accent; it really isn't. Just using Standard North American news anchor, with some specific vocabulary choices and some slight adjustments to the low back vowels - on top of restricting non-rhoticity to informal settings or the elderly - does the trick pretty adequately to this local. Possible good example, to me, is not Family Guy, but instead a short-lived TV series on NBC that was pretty hyped-up 'round these parts at the time of production, Providence.)

I'd argue that even with a variety of accents, retention of differences in speech viz. grammar and slang would be used as a marker not just to distinguish social settings, but also in-group versus out-group distinctions and all that. There could be some levelling out, of course, but not completely, particularly if one wants to identify more with a local community over a national one - and the levelling out would be greater among the upper classes, who have more of a stake in an international order (in this case, orientation towards Britain). Because we are assuming here that, with a failed ARW (or lack of one, given the right POD), America (including the West Indies) would assume the same level of importance, if not more so, than India IOTL (all the more so as the so-called "First" British Empire never really ends), these processes would be far more prominent among upwardly-mobile people - while also simultaneously engendering some level of resistance within America itself, and not just from people predisposed to the rebels (< the Afrikaner analogue or even in New England itself).