Could Patton have reached Berlin?
- Thread starter Chris
- Start date
For Ward
Why would the western allies want to ?
AS IKE said let the Russians die for it .
Why would the western allies want to ?
AS IKE said let the Russians die for it .
Yes..
But Barring a change to the political agreements made with the Soviets at the Yalta conference and to a lesser extent at Pottsdam. The U.S and British would have to return such gains. Thats why they did not take them in the OTL.
But Barring a change to the political agreements made with the Soviets at the Yalta conference and to a lesser extent at Pottsdam. The U.S and British would have to return such gains. Thats why they did not take them in the OTL.
Yes, but not Patton since he was aiming for Prauge in april. Bradley had troops on the Elbe and could have sent troops for Berlin before Zjukov started his offensive
George Carty
Banned
What do you think of the argument in "What If: America", that Stalin was desperate to take Berlin because of its nuclear secrets, and was fully prepared to fight the Western Allies over it?
Chris
Banned
I don't think that the German program was advanced enough to make it worth taking the risk, although Stalin might not have known that.
Chris
It's sort of a thread hijack but... WI no Yalta? Or at least no agreement in the post war German borders?, we have something like finders keepers instead
Certainly, Truman is in there as President earlier. I think Roosevelt was just too tired and sick to deal with Stalin by Yalta.. Maybe if he earlier or resigns, Truman can negoate a firmer position with Stalin. Maybe Prague and Berlin are added to the Western zones in such a scenario..
As you mentioned, if the Yalta terms were different in TTL, it could be a more of a finders keepers. The more fixed lines decided at Pottsdam..
In OTL of course the Soviets allowed the West to occupy most of Berlin - though they later thought it was a mistake and tried to reverse it.
To answer the original WI;
1. For GEN Patton anmd the 3rd Army to get to Berlin, or at least be in possible in MAR 45, you need a POD right after the Budge of 3rd Army being assinged to the central Germany, instead of being send south (the National Redoubt) and later forward Praque.
2. If you only want an US or Western force, only the order needed to given. by the 1st week of APR 45, 9th Army (LTGEN Simpson) was across the Elbe in strength, and had little (no ARMOR at all) between them and Berlin (by crossing the Elbe south of Berlin they turned what defenses the Germans had left in central Germany. Also 9th Army scouts actually entered Potsdam, LTGEN requested permission to drive to Berlin, but was ordered to hold fast. So all you need is something that causes Eisenhower (or Marshall or FDR) to want to grab Berlin AND good INTEL that tells them what we know now that the road was open.
** Can't find my copy of Toland's LAST HUNDRED DAYS, but I believe 9th Amry's lead heavy elements were only 50 miles (3 maybe 5 days depending on resisance and caution) away when the Soviets were still on the Polish border starting there final advance, and several weeks away.
1. For GEN Patton anmd the 3rd Army to get to Berlin, or at least be in possible in MAR 45, you need a POD right after the Budge of 3rd Army being assinged to the central Germany, instead of being send south (the National Redoubt) and later forward Praque.
2. If you only want an US or Western force, only the order needed to given. by the 1st week of APR 45, 9th Army (LTGEN Simpson) was across the Elbe in strength, and had little (no ARMOR at all) between them and Berlin (by crossing the Elbe south of Berlin they turned what defenses the Germans had left in central Germany. Also 9th Army scouts actually entered Potsdam, LTGEN requested permission to drive to Berlin, but was ordered to hold fast. So all you need is something that causes Eisenhower (or Marshall or FDR) to want to grab Berlin AND good INTEL that tells them what we know now that the road was open.
** Can't find my copy of Toland's LAST HUNDRED DAYS, but I believe 9th Amry's lead heavy elements were only 50 miles (3 maybe 5 days depending on resisance and caution) away when the Soviets were still on the Polish border starting there final advance, and several weeks away.
Yes, the US Army could have taken Berlin. But there is a big problem...
Not only does Stalin want Berlin for prestige value, but the Kaiser Whilhelm Institute in Berlin houses three or four tons of Uranium Oxide and various equipment that will come in useful for the Soviet Atomic Bomb program... and Stalin (thanks to Beria) knows this. The uranium deposits in Kazkhstan have not even been discovered yet, so the Soviets have little Uranium.
Depending on when Eisenhower makes his decision, Stalin will try to warn-off the Western Allies in less-than-friendly ways. For one, he could have the Red Airforce 'accidently' strafe a large Allied ground convoy or two.
EDIT: And the poster above me is somewhat incorrect, the Red Army had overrun Poland and East Prussia in January and February.
Not only does Stalin want Berlin for prestige value, but the Kaiser Whilhelm Institute in Berlin houses three or four tons of Uranium Oxide and various equipment that will come in useful for the Soviet Atomic Bomb program... and Stalin (thanks to Beria) knows this. The uranium deposits in Kazkhstan have not even been discovered yet, so the Soviets have little Uranium.
Depending on when Eisenhower makes his decision, Stalin will try to warn-off the Western Allies in less-than-friendly ways. For one, he could have the Red Airforce 'accidently' strafe a large Allied ground convoy or two.
EDIT: And the poster above me is somewhat incorrect, the Red Army had overrun Poland and East Prussia in January and February.
Markus
Banned
Piece of cake! The Americans were not in a hurry to take Berlin, but they got as close as Magdeburg anyway. At that time most Landsers were rather surrendering to than fighting GIs, so it´s not likely an understrenght pachtwork force like the "Armee Wenck" could have stopped an offensive.
And as far as the "Stalin would have attacked the Americans"-theories are concerned, I think that´s just american overpessimism at work or an attempot to excuse the typical allied overcaution.
Only If Ike backed off and stopped worrying about upsetting the Russians. The allies could have reached Berlin first if Patton and Montgomery were let off their leashes. Left to their own devices, the two generals would have raced each other to Berlin. They had been fierce rivals ever since the invasion of Sicily. I think they would have reached Berlin within a couple of days of each other. Hopefully, they would both have had the sense to stop going east before they collided with the Russians.
Sorry, should have been clearer, the Red Army was sitting on the German-Polish border at the time, didn't mean to give idea that Poland was still in German hands.
I believe that this did occur historically, or that there were at least skirmishes between Allied and Soviet fighters. I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the Kaiser Whilhelm Institute but, regardless, after all that the USSR had suffered Stalin was absolutely determined to take Berlin. Had the Allies attempted to prevent this then war is a good bet
Markus
Banned
Get real! The west just needs to realize the Alpenfestung is ASB -talk about seeing the obvious- and when Stalin tries to mislead them by saying Berlin´s not important any more replay it is becasue it´s the heart of Nazi power.
Like I said, I consider these theories in AH-books about a war beacause the Yanks and Brits decide to strike at Berlin a lame excuse for the usual western overcaution. Not to mention the lack of common sense for takeing the Alpenfestung at face value.
Like I said, I consider these theories in AH-books about a war beacause the Yanks and Brits decide to strike at Berlin a lame excuse for the usual western overcaution. Not to mention the lack of common sense for takeing the Alpenfestung at face value.
Could he have reached Berlin? Sure. Taken it? Not quite as sure. the Soviets took as many total casualties capturing Berlin proper (80,000-100,000) as the U.S. expected to take in the full invasion of Japan, in both Coronet & Olympic.
There were 25,000 troops in Berlin, many, although not all, being the hardest of the hard core. Getting to the City and taking it before Ivan got there would be a little dodgy.
Even if we take the Agreements off the table, there are still a lot more valuable places to grab than just Berlin (especially given the almost certain losses involved) like Austria, most of Czechoslaviaka, a sliver of Hungary, and the Adriatic coast of Yugoslavia, and more of Northern Germany along the Baltic Coast. You manage that and the Soviet conquered parts of Europe shrink and what becomes the Warsaw Pact is in the shape of salient that can be cut off from the shoulders if the need arises.
Berlin was death trap. Smartest thing the Allies did the last year of the war was let Stalin take it.
There were 25,000 troops in Berlin, many, although not all, being the hardest of the hard core. Getting to the City and taking it before Ivan got there would be a little dodgy.
Even if we take the Agreements off the table, there are still a lot more valuable places to grab than just Berlin (especially given the almost certain losses involved) like Austria, most of Czechoslaviaka, a sliver of Hungary, and the Adriatic coast of Yugoslavia, and more of Northern Germany along the Baltic Coast. You manage that and the Soviet conquered parts of Europe shrink and what becomes the Warsaw Pact is in the shape of salient that can be cut off from the shoulders if the need arises.
Berlin was death trap. Smartest thing the Allies did the last year of the war was let Stalin take it.