Could Middle Kingdom of the Treaty of Verdun 843 survive as an independent state?

pipisme

The Treaty of Verdun in 843 divided the Carolinginian Empire into three parts. Charles the Bald got the western Frankish Kingdom which developed into France; Lothair the German received the eastern Frankish Kingdom which became Germany and Austria; Lothair I was awarded the middle third, the Middle Frankish Kingdom, what is now the Low Countries, eastern France, Provence and northern Italy. Here is a map of the treaty:
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461551600/treaty_of_verdun.html . He also kept the Imperial title.

How can we get the Middle Frankish Kingdom to survive as an independent state which is still in existence at the present time, with basically the same borders in relation to the eastern and western kingdoms? Expansion to include all of Italy is not ruled out, nor are short-lived periods of occupation by other nations. Is its survival practically impossible because it had no ethnic base unlike the eastern and western Frankish kingdoms?
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

pipisme said:
The Treaty of Verdun in 843 divided the Carolinginian Empire into three parts. Charles the Bald got the western Frankish Kingdom which developed into France; Lothair the German received the eastern Frankish Kingdom which became Germany and Austria; Lothair I was awarded the middle third, the Middle Frankish Kingdom, what is now the Low Countries, eastern France, Provence and northern Italy. Here is a map of the treaty:
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461551600/treaty_of_verdun.html . He also kept the Imperial title.

How can we get the Middle Frankish Kingdom to survive as an independent state which is still in existence at the present time, with basically the same borders in relation to the eastern and western kingdoms? Expansion to include all of Italy is not ruled out, nor are short-lived periods of occupation by other nations. Is its survival practically impossible because it had no ethnic base unlike the eastern and western Frankish kingdoms?
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I'd think it's awfully tough with the Alps blocking communication north and south.
 

False Dmitri

pipisme said:
The Treaty of Verdun in 843 divided the Carolinginian Empire into three parts. Charles the Bald got the western Frankish Kingdom which developed into France; Lothair the German received the eastern Frankish Kingdom which became Germany and Austria; Lothair I was awarded the middle third, the Middle Frankish Kingdom, what is now the Low Countries, eastern France, Provence and northern Italy. Here is a map of the treaty:
http://encarta.msn.com/media_461551600/treaty_of_verdun.html . He also kept the Imperial title.

How can we get the Middle Frankish Kingdom to survive as an independent state which is still in existence at the present time, with basically the same borders in relation to the eastern and western kingdoms? Expansion to include all of Italy is not ruled out, nor are short-lived periods of occupation by other nations. Is its survival practically impossible because it had no ethnic base unlike the eastern and western Frankish kingdoms?
Click to expand...

After about 30 years that state was reduced to the Kingdom of Italy. I think that Carolingian Italy could have survived better than that whole middle stripe.

843-870_Europe.jpg
 

Baskilisk

Banned
Well obviously it's a huge problem that the country is so narrow. Maybe if they got more land and had a solid interior. Maybe if they got the entire Rhine Valley.
 

Detroitman32

Banned
I can see a string of kingdoms starting at the Low Countries, prehaps a kingdom there. But the most feasable concept is it existing as Italy- expanding into the south. The Middle Ages would be radically different with a unified Italy. I wonder what the effects on World War Two would be? :p
 

Advernt

There would not be a World War II. The Butterfly effects of such a change 1100 years before world war II would change the world unrecognizably. Similarly, if close to a century earlier, the Muslims won at Poitiers / Tours, it makes little sense of talking about a World War II .
 

Detroitman32

Banned
Advernt said:
There would not be a World War II. The Butterfly effects of such a change 1100 years before world war II would change the world unrecognizably. Similarly, if close to a century earlier, the Muslims won at Poitiers / Tours, it makes little sense of talking about a World War II .
Click to expand...
That's the joke.
 

False Dmitri

The joke is: how can you possibly predict the outcome of World War II when, with such a different map of medieval Europe, we don't even know how World War One will turn out yet.

(;))
 

rcduggan

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
I'd think it's awfully tough with the Alps blocking communication north and south.
Click to expand...
Except the Alps didn't block communication between Lotharingia, Provence, and Italy. Lothair II was able to travel back and forth multiple times in the 860s. Despite being the king of only Lotharingia, he died in Italy.

Furthermore, between 870-880 there were at least three invasions across the Alps (IIRC Louis the German, Carloman of Bavaria, and Charles the Bald all did at one point or another). So the movement of troops was not an issue either.

Benkarnell said:
After about 30 years that state was reduced to the Kingdom of Italy. I think that Carolingian Italy could have survived better than that whole middle stripe.
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Although it technically wasn't reduced at all, because Louis II was still emperor and thus enjoyed theoretical superiority over his uncles in West and East Francia.

But anyway, I think people who designate a stretch of land as "indefensible" are considering the potential for defense in a modern (or at least 20th century) sense. Geography was not an issue in Carolingian politics. It was all about dynasty, really. If Lothair II had been able to legitimize his son Hugh, his kingdom would not get divided. If Lothair or Hugh outlives Louis, they inherit Italy and reunite Middle Francia. And in a few decades both the west and eastern Frankish kingdoms are going to fall apart, giving the Middle realm some more breathing room.

Baskilisk said:
Maybe if they got more land and had a solid interior. Maybe if they got the entire Rhine Valley.
Click to expand...
Why would the Rhine valley help at all?
Furthermore, there is no way for that to happen. The division was based on honores and counties, not the strategic value of the land.
 
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