Could Gallipoli succeed?

Could Gallipoli succeed?


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The year is 1915. The Western Front has become a bloodbath and all hope of Mobile Warfare has largely been lost. France has devoted most of its available forces to holding the front and practicing their Attack at all costs doctrine. The BEF is still relatively small in comparison to the French commitment, but to many of the BEF, it was still the deceive theatre in the War. Haig & Churchill/Kitchener would butt heads quite a bit about this, to the point that some attribute Haig complaints to the press about resourcing, being one of the deciding factors for the British adopting a Unity Government. Since 1914 the German Naval Presence outside of UBoats had been reduced to only the Baltic Sea and Churchill, Lord Admiral was itching to open a new front against the Pact.

Prior to 1915 most considered a naval invasion of places like Gallipoli to be ill-advised at least. There hadn't really been a true test of naval invasion since the outbreak of machinegun warfare and Churchill had faced opposition because of this. However as the Western Front rapidly became a locked slaughter house and at least at the start of 1915, Russia was losing ground in Poland, people desired some sort of breakthrough. The Ottoman Empire looked the weakest out of the Pact. In 1910ish they had a coup that restored the constitutional monarchy and with the arab uprisings, it looked like a house of cards. Even if it didn't tumble from a successful landing & capture of Istanbul, the moral & diplomatic message that would send to the world, might have been enough to shorten the war. At least this was the belief. It would also open the Bosporus Straits, allowing for a flow of supplies into Russia.

I think most people would agree a shorter First World War would be the best outcome and at least from the British standpoint, they believed this would do it. Regardless of the outcome could the landings at Gallipoli worked?

To me, Hamilton had one of the worst possible conditions to pull this operation off. Not only did have a force of mostly very fresh divisions with limited or no amphibious training, he also was against an enemy that was experienced and able to dig in. By March the British had been preemptively bombing naval defences in the peninsula and due to the need to train up these units, the invasion didn't start until April. von Sanders himself admitted that if the British had invaded within the first 7 days of the bombardment, there would be relatively little he could do, but by the time he did, he'd had a month to entrench his positions.

Hamilton did against odds, have some success right at the start. The ANZAC landing made decentish haedway before stalling.

What changes could be made to enable the landing? To me it would be more experienced troops and better timing. This was the reason Hamilton went with.
 
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This is, as the post above indicates, one of the more popular and strongly debated questions from WW1. And I am afraid I cannot do any better than to say that I don't know. There are a legion of opportunities for the attacks to do better than they did. A few could have made a pretty substantial difference. But would these improvements have actually delivered the day to the Entente? Its hard to say. Military understanding before WW1 was that a much larger force would be needed.
 
Thirty nine years ago I attended a two hour lecture deconstructing the Gallipoli operation. Heres a few points I recall:

Security. It was poor & the deception plan was transparent . The defense had a fair picture of what the Brits were up to.

Unity of Command. There were some critical disconnects within the RN & Army command that hindered the execution of the operation. For some reason unknown to me the British excellence at littoral operations of the previous three centuries was not present. Why is a important question.

Mass. The Brit leaders thought they had some good reasons for multiple dispersed landing sites, but those could not support each other very well & prevented operational mass at decisive points.

Speed. Nope

Intelligence. Poor at best.

Execution. Uneven & parts very badly done.

Fix the better part of these & the attack as a much better chance.
 
Apologies for bringing up an old question. Totally slipped my mind to check for previous threads. I will have a read through them.
I don’t think you need to apologise.

While looking for old threads is helpful, I find it annoying that people try and shut down discussions. Just because we have talked about it previously doesn’t mean we can’t discuss it again…

Isn’t history all about reopening past events and trying to find new insights?
 
Depending on which source you read it could have either succeeded with a bit more drive on the part of the British commanders, or it was doomed to failure from the start. Take your pick :)
 
Depending on which source you read it could have either succeeded with a bit more drive on the part of the British commanders, or it was doomed to failure from the start.

Since command arraignments, the poor security, and bad planning were key factors Im with the Doomed school. You need to reach that far back to multiple PoD to get success. Sure theres some changes during the landings or battle that are interesting Wi, but the thing was a train wreck before the soldiers started their first rehearsal.

Oh wait, a useful rehearsal of the landings was not done. Another fail.
 
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The underlying strategic concept was sound. Putting an army at the gates of Istanbul had worked in the recent historical past to bring the Ottomans to the peace table.
 
The underlying strategic concept was sound. Putting an army at the gates of Istanbul had worked in the recent historical past to bring the Ottomans to the peace table.
Yeah, but those armies had marched in from a different direction, not from an isolated peninsula with a horrible "bottleneck" geography and miserable terrain to fight across, and no viable way out except the way you came in, in case things go south... Surprised there's been so many "yes" votes, would like to hear from some of those... but I'm gonna stick with a big fat "nope" on this one...
Overcoming an army is one thing, but overcoming topography is another matter entirely...
 
Since command arraignments, the poor security, and bad planning were key factors Im with the Doomed school. You need to reach that far back to multiple PoD to get success. Sure theres some changes during the landings or battle that are interesting Wi, but the thing was a train wreck before the soldiers started their first rehearsal.

Oh wait, a useful rehearsal of the landings was not done. Another fail.

I'll admit I'm not an expert on the Landings and their buildup, but weren't there practice ones on Greek Islands?
 
I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a POD 3-6 months in advance (probably with a new leader) and the whole thing planned differently.

I'm of the opinion that the idea is a sound one but the execution was horrible.
 
I've always been under the impression that the navy could have pushed through the straits if it really tried and was willing to take significant yet not devastating casualties.
 
I've always been under the impression that the navy could have pushed through the straits if it really tried and was willing to take significant yet not devastating casualties.
The attempt to force the Darndelles was not coordinated with the the Gallipoli campaign.

If the straits was forced it would not necessarily have worked to force the Ottomans out of the war.
 
The attempt to force the Darndelles was not coordinated with the the Gallipoli campaign.

If the straits was forced it would not necessarily have worked to force the Ottomans out of the war.
With a pod you could coordinate the two. Forcing the straits allows you to bypass the Gallipoli defenses as well as cut off much needed Ottoman reinforcements from the rest of the empire.
 
With a pod you could coordinate the two. Forcing the straits allows you to bypass the Gallipoli defenses as well as cut off much needed Ottoman reinforcements from the rest of the empire.
I do agree that some sort of coordination would definitely be one of the best pods to ensure success.
 
If it had succeeded Churchill would have been 'the man of the hour'.

Yes - it was not a bad idea. It made a lot of sense in many ways - but --- execution was a bit off target.

We can now ask ourselves: if it had been a great success, what would happen with Churchill?
 

Deleted member 2186

The year is 1915. The Western Front has become a bloodbath and all hope of Mobile Warfare has largely been lost. France has devoted most of its available forces to holding the front and practicing their Attack at all costs doctrine. The BEF is still relatively small in comparison to the French commitment, but to many of the BEF, it was still the deceive theatre in the War. Haig & Churchill/Kitchener would butt heads quite a bit about this, to the point that some attribute Haig complaints to the press about resourcing, being one of the deciding factors for the British adopting a Unity Government. Since 1914 the German Naval Presence outside of UBoats had been reduced to only the Baltic Sea and Churchill, Lord Admiral was itching to open a new front against the Pact.

Prior to 1915 most considered a naval invasion of places like Gallipoli to be ill-advised at least. There hadn't really been a true test of naval invasion since the outbreak of machinegun warfare and Churchill had faced opposition because of this. However as the Western Front rapidly became a locked slaughter house and at least at the start of 1915, Russia was losing ground in Poland, people desired some sort of breakthrough. The Ottoman Empire looked the weakest out of the Pact. In 1910ish they had a coup that restored the constitutional monarchy and with the arab uprisings, it looked like a house of cards. Even if it didn't tumble from a successful landing & capture of Istanbul, the moral & diplomatic message that would send to the world, might have been enough to shorten the war. At least this was the belief. It would also open the Bosporus Straits, allowing for a flow of supplies into Russia.

I think most people would agree a shorter First World War would be the best outcome and at least from the British standpoint, they believed this would do it. Regardless of the outcome could the landings at Gallipoli worked?

To me, Hamilton had one of the worst possible conditions to pull this operation off. Not only did have a force of mostly very fresh divisions with limited or no amphibious training, he also was against an enemy that was experienced and able to dig in. By March the British had been preemptively bombing naval defences in the peninsula and due to the need to train up these units, the invasion didn't start until April. von Sanders himself admitted that if the British had invaded within the first 7 days of the bombardment, there would be relatively little he could do, but by the time he did, he'd had a month to entrench his positions.

Hamilton did against odds, have some success right at the start. The ANZAC landing made decentish haedway before stalling.

What changes could be made to enable the landing? To me it would be more experienced troops and better timing. This was the reason Hamilton went with.
Had the British and French won at Gallipoli and saw a Turkish surrender, Bulgaria, Romania, and Greece would have cast their lot with the Allies before the end of 1915.
 
The Original Plan for Gallipoli
Was to Occupy the Dardanelles and Bosporus, for supply Russia against Germany they even promise Istanbul to the Tsar.

The Idea was good, the implementation was a disaster
the British first sea attempt failed, alert the Ottomans and Mustafa Kemal that ground invasion would follow and prepared the defence at Gallipoli.
British took wrong landing site with wrong troops: instead trained British infantry, untrained Australian cavalry troops on foot.
They landed on rough terrain and were under constant fire by Ottoman troops under orders Kemal
After heavy losses the British establish bridge head, but it was patt situation They could not defeat the Ottomans and those only defend their position.
In the End the British and Australian manage to retreat, that looks today more like miracle !

Had British taken right sites and trained infantry, things would be different, special if something happened to Mustafa Kemal.
The lost of Dardanelles and Bosporus would be disaster for Central powers, the Ottoman empire collapse instantly
The Entente could supply Russia who were in advance against to Central Powers
the War could shorter and today could have still Tsardom of Russia, with city of Constantinople as there possession...
 
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