Could any other Balts "pull a Lithuania"?
- Thread starter Dyranum
- Start date
I don't know about the nobility part (so if you say so, I'm taking your word for it), but how are you defining core territory?
The territory that was under direct control of the grand dukes, provided most of military forces and paid most of taxes. Most other territory was under various vassal princes.
Makes sense. Although I'd think that the vassals all totalled would equal something substantial.
If the Teutonic Order either doesn't form or doesn't go to the Baltic, how about a genuinely Prussian 'Greater Prussia' that expands eastwards through Lithuania and maybe also takes over some other lands around the south-eastern coasts of the Baltic... and then, perhaps, a Polish-Prussian Union?
Livonia isn't plausible for such expansion, they were too minor for it.
*Couronians- Very strong fraction, if you could for example make the Seeborg/Grobina viking city survive and make it strong enough to want to conquer Couronians I could see the Couronians do same as the Irish did against the vikings in Dublin ie elect a High King and unite themselves to go to war against Seeborg.
The Bad thing with Couronians is that it was actually 2 nations-Baltic Couronians and Livonian Couronians, so at one point Livonian Couronians would maybe revolt against "true Couronians"
*Zhemaits- A different tribe of todays Lithuanians, in OTL the Aukshtaits united Lithuania and defeated Zhemaits so just have Zhemaits have a strong leader like Mindaugas and you got it.
Letgallians-Before the Baltic Crusades Letgallians had been only ones that had orgaized and created true States( Jersika and Koknese) but those were vassals of the Princedom of Polotsk, so give the Letgallians some time, let them unite and grow and you could have a Orthodox Baltic Kingdom
*Estonians-Before the Baltic Crusades its quite ASB to make them unite, if you can butterfly the Crusades away and keep the Russians and Scandinavians away, then I believe that the Tribes of Sakala, Saaremaa or Ugandi could unite Estonians.
There is however two very interesting PODs-1) Make the Estonians win the battle of Lindanase/Lindanisa and kill Valdemar II, maybe you can unite Northern Estonians that way, who then would unite with Southern ones led by Lembitu and create an Estonian Kingdom.
2)After the Baltic Crusades, North Estonia was in the hands of Danes, Southern in the hands of the Livonian Order and in the Middle there were the counties, run by local nobility that were Directly Popes lands, some sort of Patrimonim Petri in the North, make that Church State survive the attack of the Livonian Order.
*Couronians- Very strong fraction, if you could for example make the Seeborg/Grobina viking city survive and make it strong enough to want to conquer Couronians I could see the Couronians do same as the Irish did against the vikings in Dublin ie elect a High King and unite themselves to go to war against Seeborg.
The Bad thing with Couronians is that it was actually 2 nations-Baltic Couronians and Livonian Couronians, so at one point Livonian Couronians would maybe revolt against "true Couronians"
*Zhemaits- A different tribe of todays Lithuanians, in OTL the Aukshtaits united Lithuania and defeated Zhemaits so just have Zhemaits have a strong leader like Mindaugas and you got it.
Letgallians-Before the Baltic Crusades Letgallians had been only ones that had orgaized and created true States( Jersika and Koknese) but those were vassals of the Princedom of Polotsk, so give the Letgallians some time, let them unite and grow and you could have a Orthodox Baltic Kingdom
*Estonians-Before the Baltic Crusades its quite ASB to make them unite, if you can butterfly the Crusades away and keep the Russians and Scandinavians away, then I believe that the Tribes of Sakala, Saaremaa or Ugandi could unite Estonians.
There is however two very interesting PODs-1) Make the Estonians win the battle of Lindanase/Lindanisa and kill Valdemar II, maybe you can unite Northern Estonians that way, who then would unite with Southern ones led by Lembitu and create an Estonian Kingdom.
2)After the Baltic Crusades, North Estonia was in the hands of Danes, Southern in the hands of the Livonian Order and in the Middle there were the counties, run by local nobility that were Directly Popes lands, some sort of Patrimonim Petri in the North, make that Church State survive the attack of the Livonian Order.
Too late. At the time Lithuania was already growing in the power.
It seems that most Prussian military activity was toward the West. They were under heavy pressure by Poles and Pomeranians.
IMO the best chases had Estonians, when Danes and the Sword brothers came they was close to uniting.
They fought rather successfully Danish and Sweden attempts to conquer, but they were in decline after 11th century.
Curonians were Baltic, Livonians were living next to them.
Lithuania joined the "Occident" relatively late (compared to Poland, Russia, Sweden), but much earlier than the other peoples in the Baltic region.
This didn't yet imply that it would become an important part of a great power (Poland-Lithuania), but it gave the country the opportunity to play an independent role.
So basically you are asking that one of the other peoples in that region
a) manages to found a somewhat stable and defensible state,
b) converts to Christianity, which - in the logic of that time - also implies the acceptance of certain rule in the relation with foreign nobility.
To make your TL ambitions possible, this should take place a bit earlier than with Lithuania IOTL - let's say, first half of 13th century.
Only then you would have a state and a noble class that could actually enter the game (where you want them to win a nice prize).
This didn't yet imply that it would become an important part of a great power (Poland-Lithuania), but it gave the country the opportunity to play an independent role.
So basically you are asking that one of the other peoples in that region
a) manages to found a somewhat stable and defensible state,
b) converts to Christianity, which - in the logic of that time - also implies the acceptance of certain rule in the relation with foreign nobility.
To make your TL ambitions possible, this should take place a bit earlier than with Lithuania IOTL - let's say, first half of 13th century.
Only then you would have a state and a noble class that could actually enter the game (where you want them to win a nice prize).
Lithuania only converted to Christianity well after establishing A, though. Although some ruler whose name escapes me toyed with the idea for political purposes.
You are misinterpreting me. Converting to Christianity is not a part of the parameters, though it would probably eventually happen anyways due to the fact that they would be surrounded by Christian states. I am wondering if one of the other Balts could possibly have founded a stable state which could then have had somewhat similar success as Lithuania. That is to say, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Something similar to the Union of Lublin and personal union with Poland are not a part of what I am asking, as all of that happened after Lithuanian successes (well not all of them, but I think you get the general idea).
Of course, much of Lithuania's success is built on the collapse of the Kievan Rus and the Mongol invasions, but...I don't know where I was heading with that line of thought.
Now, from what research I have made, Estonia had a chance to unite during the Baltic Crusades. Is a PoD where Lembitu of Lehola survives the Battle of Matthew's Day plausible for forming a strong Estonian state? (of course, the problem of Novgorod still remains)
Also the Prussians are an interesting player, but how would they unite? They did resist many attacks though, so I guess they had a chance.
My knowledge of exact events in Prussian history is a bit poor.
As far as I know they never really managed to unite, but I don't know why.