Could a successful Napoleonic France Frenchify the Rhineland

[Gloss]

We should note that the objective was not to subjugate the non-francophone peoples and make them second-class citizens, but the reverse: having them learn French would allow them to participate more completely in civic life. French was also the dominant international language in this era so there was an incentive for people to learn it anyway. With the rise of universal public education, I don't see why the people of the Rhineland wouldn't have followed the example of the Alsatians, Basques, Bretons, Provençaux, etc.

Comparing France linguistically assimilating Occitans with the Rhineland would be like saying that Germany would be quickly able to assimilate all of Poland because they assimilated Northern Low German dialects. Those are different cases.


Also Alsatian weren't exactly assimilated linguistically, not until the second postwar and even then there were many factors at play that made it easier than otherwise.

 

[funnyhat]

With all respect, that's just crap. How does encouraging priests to only give communion in French encourage entry into civic life for these people? The purpose wasn't to make non-French speakers second class citizens or to help them, but to wipe out regional identities so it wouldn't compete with French nationhood.

I'm not saying that all of their methods were good, or that it's good that the regional languages declined. Just that across the Western world, there was this idea back then that knowing a regional language would interfere with the acquisition of the national language (which we now know to be incorrect), and the government legitimately wanted everyone in France to be able to use the national language. It believed that its policies were beneficial to non-francophones.

Comparing France linguistically assimilating Occitans with the Rhineland would be like saying that Germany would be quickly able to assimilate all of Poland because they assimilated Northern Low German dialects. Those are different cases.


Also Alsatian weren't exactly assimilated linguistically, not until the second postwar and even then there were many factors at play that made it easier than otherwise.

The Bretons, Basques and Flamands learned French despite not speaking Romance languages. If you are educated in French and have to speak it in the classroom, you will learn it.

Regarding the Alsatians, they wen't part of France from 1871-1919, so for them of course the process of language shift was delayed.

 

[Gloss]

I'm not saying that all of their methods were good, or that it's good that the regional languages declined. Just that across the Western world, there was this idea back then that knowing a regional language would interfere with the acquisition of the national language (which we now know to be incorrect), and the government legitimately wanted everyone in France to be able to use the national language. It believed that its policies were beneficial to non-francophones.

I guess, but would it be that far compared to the "civilizing mission" that the Europeans thought of when they colonized Africa and Asia? I mean some might have thought it would have a good outcome but at the same time it could be just dishonest linguistic chauvinism without any real reason behind it.

The Bretons, Basques and Flamands learned French despite not speaking Romance languages. If you are educated in French and have to speak it in the classroom, you will learn it.

Flemish,Occitans and Bretons had no real nationalism to back any kind of resistance(Basques did partially, and their language fared better than others but at the same time their smaller community disencitivzes supporting the language but the Rhineland would be 1/6 of the French population probably), by virtue of them being under France for a milennia by now(in some form or another at least), Rhinelanders would.

Regarding the Alsatians, they wen't part of France from 1871-1919, so for them of course the process of language shift was delayed.

I was more thinking about the interwar era.

 

[Bad@logic]

Flemish,Occitans and Bretons had no real nationalism to back any kind of resistance(Basques did partially, and their language fared better than others but at the same time their smaller community disencitivzes supporting the language but the Rhineland would be 1/6 of the French population probably), by virtue of them being under France for a milennia by now(in some form or another at least), Rhinelanders would.

The Rhineland only had around 1.6 million people during the period, while the population of "old France" was around 30 million (total imperial population was 44 million by 1812). The French are hardly in danger of being swamped by the Rhinelanders. German patriotism at the time period was embryonic at best in the Rhineland : France, Prussia, or Germany? The Napoleonic Wars and Shifting Allegiances in the Rhineland, and Between Empire and Home Town: Napoleonic Rule on the Rhine, 1799-1814, both attest to that. There was some form of allegiance to the greater Holy Roman identity, and in this regards towards the Hapsburgs in particular. Of course nationalism as a whole was in an embryonic form in Germany, but the Rhenish were always more regional in Germany than nationalized. I don't see any reason why it would be dramatically different under the French, and that Rhenish identity would be more focused on Rhenish regionalism with a greater French polity, instead of attachment to Germany, and hence accepting of French, especially since I've speculated that the French would be more tolerant of local languages.

 

[Cheer]

I would be very, very, slow, and definitely incomplete, but I think France could do it. They just need to insist on Parisian French education for the entire continental empire, and, with time, the Rhineland might get to be dual French/Rhenish dialect speaking. The secondary language wouldn't be German, I don't think, but an amalgamation of Rhenish dialects of German and French.

Culturally, France would have a very hard time. It would probably stay German culturally, with some French oddities. But yeah, there's no way it's gonna end up completely, 100% French unless there's horrible genocide.

 

[Gloss]

but the Rhenish were always more regional in Germany than nationalized.

As opposed to what? The Rhineland is no more regional in its culture than the South of Germany or at this even the north(with the recreation of the Hannover kingdom being a political issue as well), that doesn't mean that the overall trend of nationalism is going to disappear.

I don't see any reason why it would be dramatically different under the French, and that Rhenish identity would be more focused on Rhenish regionalism with a greater French polity, instead of attachment to Germany, and hence accepting of French, especially since I've speculated that the French would be more tolerant of local languages.

Why would Rheinish regionalism not be at odds with a centralized France? Even considering them accepting the language(unlikely considering the Jacobins opposed that for Occitans for example) more so when you are also dividing the Rhinelander from other fellow Rhinelander on the right side of the Rhine(and Hessian from other Hessian, the entire idea of selecting the Upper-to-Middle Rhine as a border is overall dumb anyway), maybe they won't be naturally tending toward Prussia or Austria(the former for religion, the second for maybe political ideological divide) but they definitely won't be frenchified just because.

 

[Bad@logic]

As opposed to what? The Rhineland is no more regional in its culture than the South of Germany or at this even the north(with the recreation of the Hannover kingdom being a political issue as well), that doesn't mean that the overall trend of nationalism is going to disappear.

Because the Rhenish region had an extremely long feud with the centralized German state in defense of its own local (mostly French imposed) institutions). As noted in the 1860s in The Franco-Prussian War: The German Conquest of France:

Nor was the Prussian kingdom in one piece, territorially or spiritually.
Physically it was broken into two halves, the eastern heartland of Branden-
burg-Prussia and the western provinces of Westphalia and the Rhineland.
Foreign states – Hanover, Hessia, Baden, and several smaller ones – nested in
the gap between the two halves as did a great deal of cultural misunderstanding.
In 1863, a Prussian infantry officer from the east joined his regiment in Aachen
in the west for the first time. Although Aachen and the surrounding Rheingau
had been a part of Prussia since 1815, the young man was astonished by
the depth of anti-Prussian feeling there. Locals considered Prussia a foreign
country, and called it Stinkpreusse – “Putrid Prussia.” Fathers with sons in
military service lamented that their boys were “serving with the Prussians,”
as if they had been abducted by a foreign power. Prussian officials were called
Polakien (“Polacks”) or Hinterpommern (“Pomeranian hicks”). They were
taken for savages, not educated men from the schools and universities of
Bonn, Gottingen, Berlin, or Rostock. ̈ 4 The resentment felt by these Rhenish
townsmen and peasants was itself a reflection of Prussian weakness. In 1860,
The Times of London had written: “How [Prussia] became a great power
history tells us, why she remains so, nobody can tell.”5 It was an ungainly
state riven by geography, culture, class, and history.

This didn't end there of course, and separation was still an important political force by the 1920s. As noted in the Napoleonic period, nationalism towards Germany as a whole was essentially nil. Nationalism in the Rhineland was a distinctly regional phenomenon.

Why would Rheinish regionalism not be at odds with a centralized France? Even considering them accepting the language(unlikely considering the Jacobins opposed that for Occitans for example) more so when you are also dividing the Rhinelander from other fellow Rhinelander on the right side of the Rhine(and Hessian from other Hessian, the entire idea of selecting the Upper-to-Middle Rhine as a border is overall dumb anyway), maybe they won't be naturally tending toward Prussia or Austria(the former for religion, the second for maybe political ideological divide) but they definitely won't be frenchified just because.

Because if the Rhineland is based upon principally localism and regionalism, then why is it so special compared to all of the other fierce local and regional patriotisms? France in the 19th century was an intensely provincial and localized place, but the central French state overcame that. A regional patriotism is nothing that the French haven't seen or adapted to before.

 

[Faeelin]

The Rhineland only had around 1.6 million people during the period, while the population of "old France" was around 30 million (total imperial population was 44 million by 1812). The French are hardly in danger of being swamped by the Rhinelanders. German patriotism at the time period was embryonic at best in the Rhineland : France, Prussia, or Germany? The Napoleonic Wars and Shifting Allegiances in the Rhineland, and Between Empire and Home Town: Napoleonic Rule on the Rhine, 1799-1814, both attest to that. There was some form of allegiance to the greater Holy Roman identity, and in this regards towards the Hapsburgs in particular. Of course nationalism as a whole was in an embryonic form in Germany, but the Rhenish were always more regional in Germany than nationalized. I don't see any reason why it would be dramatically different under the French, and that Rhenish identity would be more focused on Rhenish regionalism with a greater French polity, instead of attachment to Germany, and hence accepting of French, especially since I've speculated that the French would be more tolerant of local languages.

Your points, and in particular that French nationalism would look very different, are excellent.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Before industralisation Rhineland is not that populous. And when industralisation starts masses of French peasants looking for job in mines and factories would flood the area (which was IOTL destination for German immigrants from rural Prussia).

 

[B-29_Bomber]

Comparing France linguistically assimilating Occitans with the Rhineland would be like saying that Germany would be quickly able to assimilate all of Poland because they assimilated Northern Low German dialects. Those are different cases.

Actually, the Prussians/Germans were actually making some progress in assimilating the Polish.

Had the Germans maintained control of the Post-Napoleonic eastern border then the area that would have become Poland Post-1919 OTL would have likely be majority German speaking.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Actually, the Prussians/Germans were actually making some progress in assimilating the Polish.

Had the Germans maintained control of the Post-Napoleonic eastern border then the area that would have become Poland Post-1919 OTL would have likely be majority German speaking.

Germans had similar problem France would face in Rhineland-lower birthrates than Poles. This + Ostflucht caused rise of precentage of Polish population in Posen during last years before ww1.

 

[Pempelune]

Germans had similar problem France would face in Rhineland-lower birthrates than Poles. This + Ostflucht caused rise of precentage of Polish population in Posen during last years before ww1.

I don't understand why birthrates would be an issue here. As far as I know French assimilation of regional identities was never an issue of Parisians settling the province, but rather the product of a very centralized state that imposed its culture, values and language on the rest of the country through education. Beside, the kind of French nationalism that emerged during the Revolution was not ethnic - it was civic. It didn't refer to ancestry, but to loyalty to the liberal values of the Revolution, values that were largely shared in the Rhineland. That's how French identity emerged, and I fail to see why it wouldn't work in the Rhineland when it worked in Alsace and Britanny.

 

[B-29_Bomber]

Germans had similar problem France would face in Rhineland-lower birthrates than Poles. This + Ostflucht caused rise of precentage of Polish population in Posen during last years before ww1.

Birthrates are irrelevant when the Poles were adopting German culture.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Birthrates are irrelevant when the Poles were adopting German culture.

In Posen? Stronghold of Polish nationalism? Rise of German population in Posen under Prussian rule was due to settlement of ethnic Germans, not due to Germanization of local Poles.