Could a more centralized, extended and stronger HRE develop an ideal of 'Reconquista' over the Ottoman Empire after the fall of Constantinople?

[Mario]

Maybe this map could better reflect the proposed alt-scenario:

In this alt-scenario the HRE managed to centralize and diminish the Papal authority during the Hohenstaufers rule. The union of the Kingdom of Sicily (which already retained the OTL-short-lived Kingdom of Africa) during that time favoured that the whole of Italy would integrate into the HRE as well as Africa (Tunisia), which would be settled by new German and Italian land elites. Thus, the Northern Crusade produced a real expansion of the HRE to the Baltic (no Monastic states) and the union of Poland and Lithuania was never performed.
The later Mongol expansion avoided the creation of Russia while Lithuania was divided between the Mongols and the HRE, with a large stretch of no man's swampy land inbetween. The Ottomans expanded similar to OTL, with the exception of Africa (they were stopped at Cirenaica). In this scenario there is no Reformation, so the HRE remains overwhelmingly Catholic.
In such scenario, would the HRE develop some kind of ideal of 'Reconquista' over the Ottomans for the former ERE territories? They would have no other big enemy as long as the Mongols stay away in the East, and France or Sweden would not pose any significant threat in this case, assuming that both Spain and Britain are also busy with their projects in America.

 

[Elfwine]

Did this timeline have the Latin Empire? Because it seems likely that this hugely successful (to the point it's likely had a bigger impact on the area the Ottomans control) will either be claiming that, or something more like what Henry VI (as in Barbarossa's son) did OTL, more than drawing on the Reconquestia for ideas/justification.

 

[Mario]

Did this timeline have the Latin Empire? Because it seems likely that this hugely successful (to the point it's likely had a bigger impact on the area the Ottomans control) will either be claiming that, or something more like what Henry VI (as in Barbarossa's son) did OTL, more than drawing on the Reconquestia for ideas/justification.

It ended as IOTL.
I know it could serve as an alternate way to claim the area, but I wanted to explore a different idea rather than the more usual HRE-Latin Empire relationship.

 

[Elfwine]

Well, it's more like "marry an heiress, claim that the area belongs by right by virtue of that." than the Latin Empire continuing on.

If it's not that, I think it would be like Henry VI claiming "there is only one Roman Emperor, that's me." about it. And well, the area the Ottomans rule is largely former Roman territory, so...

Basically I don't think it really would be so much developing a new idea as having (assuming the limits of what the emperor can control aren't already overstretched, which I'm not sure of here) the resources to try implementing notions already there.

 

[Mario]

Well, it's more like "marry an heiress, claim that the area belongs by right by virtue of that." than the Latin Empire continuing on.

If it's not that, I think it would be like Henry VI claiming "there is only one Roman Emperor, that's me." about it. And well, the area the Ottomans rule is largely former Roman territory, so...

Basically I don't think it really would be so much developing a new idea as having (assuming the limits of what the emperor can control aren't already overstretched, which I'm not sure of here) the resources to try implementing notions already there.

Well, my question is if an ideal similar to Spanish 'Reconquista' or American Manifest Destiny could have applied to the HRE (formal heir of the WRE) over the former ERE territories once they had been completely occupied. Of course, this would need of a more centralized Empire (maybe a succesful Erbreichsplan, making it hereditary for the Hohenstaufen lineage, could be a good start), with less internal infight, less Papal interference and no Reformation success.

 

[Elfwine]

I mean, does there need to be a new idea when the Holy Roman Emperors are already claiming to be the heirs of Augustus?

I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for as far as new ideas vs. that.

 

[Mario]

I mean, does there need to be a new idea when the Holy Roman Emperors are already claiming to be the heirs of Augustus?

I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for as far as new ideas vs. that.

Because these are two different concepts:

The Holy Roman Emperors usually claimed to be the heirs of Augustus etc. and even sometimes as the only legitimate ones (opposed to the Byzantine Emperors). However, these claims were rarely territorial (maybe Henry VI was an exception), but normally were based on prestige, authority and sometimes intended capacity of secural control over the Church. Even when Byzantium was falling into ashes in the 15th century, they did not bother to arrange any territorial intervention in the Balkans, less say Constantinople.
So they usually just used those claims for strengthen their authority inside the HRE, but rarely used it for any territorial claim in the East (even less for 'Reunification' of the two Roman Empires).

The idea I would want to develop is similar to the ideal developed in Iberia of 'Reconquista', this is, taking back those lands that were once Roman in this case from a non-Christian power.

 

[Elfwine]

Even when Byzantium was falling into ashes in the 15th century, they did not bother to arrange any territorial intervention in the Balkans, less say Constantinople.

In a timeline where - for example - Sigismund wasn't even able to control Bohemia (although interestingly hid did attempt a crusade against the Ottomans in 1428).
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sigismund-Holy-Roman-emperor

Campaigning in the Balkans more than his OTL efforts would take resources he didn't have - but that's not a concern of TTL's emperors.

Just my thoughts there. I do imagine "supposedly temporal head of Christendom (or at least seen in the West that way)" is going to mean something on crusades, if not necessarily exactly the Reconquestia.

 

[funnyhat]

I feel like a centralized, dominant HRE would create enough butterflies that the Ottomans would not dominate the Balkans. A HRE strong enough to conquer all that European territory would not allow the Ottomans to reach their OTL extent.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

A united HRE would preempt any rise of the Ottomans during the Crusades at the latest.

 

[Mario]

I feel like a centralized, dominant HRE would create enough butterflies that the Ottomans would not dominate the Balkans. A HRE strong enough to conquer all that European territory would not allow the Ottomans to reach their OTL extent.

A united HRE would preempt any rise of the Ottomans during the Crusades at the latest.

I would not take that for granted.

Even if the HRE would be stronger and more centralized, it would have still many problems to prevent a rising power like the Ottomans to spread into the Balkans, where they had no big margin to manoeuvre. And keeping the Mongols at bay would mean diverting efforts from the Crusades at some point.

The consolidation of such HRE would require also many efforts, and the problems in the Balkans would be probably not a priority until the enemy could knock on your own door, and surely the HRE would have also relied on Hungary to stop the advance (something that did not happen IOTL as well).

 

[Ultima Ratio]

keeping the Mongols at bay

The HRE never had to directly deal with the Mongols IOTL (aside from knights sent to Hungary and their indirect contact via Teutons), I don't see this being different ITTL unless the butterflies maybe allow Ogedei to live longer and potentially keep going west. In fact, the Mongols destroying Hungary and Poland are both benefits for a centralized HRE.

 

[Mario]

The HRE never had to directly deal with the Mongols IOTL (aside from knights sent to Hungary and their indirect contact via Teutons), I don't see this being different ITTL unless the butterflies maybe allow Ogedei to live longer and potentially keep going west. In fact, the Mongols destroying Hungary and Poland are both benefits for a centralized HRE.

Yes, but keep in mind that IOTL the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania was an effective buffer against the Mongols, and this commonwealth does not exist ITTL, so the HRE would have to be more involved in keeping the Mongols at bay than IOTL.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Yes, but keep in mind that IOTL the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania was an effective buffer against the Mongols, and this commonwealth does not exist ITTL, so the HRE would have to be more involved in keeping the Mongols at bay than IOTL.

PLC did not exist during the main Mongol invasions (1240s), the later invasions were not as serious, in fact the third one was defeated in 1287.

 

[Mario]

PLC did not exist during the main Mongol invasions (1240s), the later invasions were not as serious, in fact the third one was defeated in 1287.

Not during the first Mongol invasions, but it existed during the Golden Horde existence.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

Not during the first Mongol invasions, but it existed during the Golden Horde existence.

The Golden Horde did not pose a serious threat to Central Europe though, besides the occasional raids. Nogai's defeat in Poland and Hungary basically ended any concentrated Mongol effort to bring these states to heel, in fact the Hungarians even invaded Mongol lands in 1345.

 

[Byzantophile with pride]

The main problem with teh HRE is the lack of external threats.

For most of it’s time in existence the HRE had no real reason to centralize power and diminish local noble authority.

The danes, after the fall of the kalmar union, were negligible, the French expanded very slowly and had to deal with england for 100 years, south Italy was a negligible threat, Poland would be focused more on the east.

The Hre would need a substantial threat to the german princes in order to force them to consolidate.

And in order for that to happen by the time Constantinople fell i would argue either the French goes on a grand campaign against the Holy Roman Emperor and occupy them like Napoleon did, and eventually the shellshocked princes consolidate into the emperor’s power, or the HRE doesn’t start decentralizing to begin with.

In any way, during this time period no one was really interested in reconquering Constantinople, the turks trashed the ladt crusade and weren’t enough of a continental threat to gander a christian coalition until they conquered Hungary.

the only way I realistically see this scenario happening is maybe if Komnenos dinasty never had the chance to get into power and the turks conquer Constantinople early, because at this time the christian world was extremely ready for crusading and attacking muslim powers.

 

[Evil Crusader]

Nice wank there.
In all of this, the most interesting oddity actually is the survival of a Mongol khanate in Russia (going with the charitable assumption that it's not the main khanate, because that would push it closer to ASB).
What is the reasoning behind it?