Could a Chinese dynasty have had overseas territories?
- Thread starter stevej713
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Well, there was the Lanfang Republic, a Chinese-ruled state in Borneo that was a tributary of Qing Dynasty.
Sulu ruled by Ming is possible, since the Chinese under Yongle were offered to have Sulu.
Maoistic
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They could had tried their luck at conquering the Arabian Peninsula and the Horn of Africa, which Zheng He visited, not to mention it wasn't uncommon for Arab sailors from the Gulf of Aden and Iraq to dock in Guangdong and other southern ports of China. Really, had Yongle committed enough resources, he may well could have taken this area.
The most plausible is control of the Spice Islands of Maluku. In fact it’s baffling why Zheng He didn’t do it. His fleet would have been self funded. At a stretch they might have made Australia.
Who made the offer and why?
Who made the offer and why?
it is something like this? its says the Qing Dynasty.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/soc.culture.filipino/jww60RNqWbo/dTBki0F0ma0J
Usually, transcontinental or subcontinental empires weren't outright colonist oriented. The Chinese were more influential expansionists in the sense they basked in exercizing their soft power in the regions around them, and acculturate into their views.
Paradoxally, the three countries which most felt the Chinese culture and influence, semicolonial we can say - Vietnam, Korea and Japan - were (and are still today) also the most resilient to it.
Paradoxally, the three countries which most felt the Chinese culture and influence, semicolonial we can say - Vietnam, Korea and Japan - were (and are still today) also the most resilient to it.
Maoistic
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Sorry, but using the term "soft power" to talk of a pre-modern state really sounds like typical Sinologist conflation of modern China with past China. Sinologists overrate China's influence over Asia. While Sanskrit, Tamil and Arab were spreading in Southeast Asia, no single Chinese language spread into China's western neighbours, and while Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam converted all of China's western neighbours and Buddhism became a prominent religion inside China itself, China never spread Daoism or any other native religion. And outside Vietnam, Korea and Japan, we see little influence of Chinese architecture and other artistic influences, unlike the prominence of Indian architecture and art from Burma to the Philippines. We also talk of an Indian Ocean, not a Chinese Ocean. I've even come to doubt descriptions of Chinese "tributary" states.
Simply put, if pre-modern Chinese empires were somehow engaging in "soft power", then they were doing a terrible job at it since Chinese influence is barely noticeable even in nearby states.
Vietnam, Korea and Japan's relation to China has never been anywhere near semi-colonial. The only colonial or semi-colonial relation is Imperial Japan's attempted colonisation of China, Korea and Vietnam in the 20th century.
If my position was pro-Chinese influenced, it wasn't my intention. I see your point, albeit more of Daoism I would speak of Zen Buddhism especially in Japan. But I am convening over your opinion.
Maoistic
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Seriously, that e-mail sounds like it was made by one of those Sinologists that want to conflate today's China with the China of the past to portray it as a global power in all of its historical periods and to compare it to European colonial powers, as well as containing the myth propagated mostly by Bernard Lewis that Muslims have an almost supernatural capacity to resist Christian encroachments on them more than any other people on Earth. No matter how ridiculous these claims are when they're actually scrutinised, they get repeated over and over by Western scholars and non-Western scholars influenced by the former.
The Sulu polity survived - as a small rump state - because of inter-European rivalry in the region, not because Muslims are anti-infidel fanatics in general and anti-Christian fanatics in particular that are almost impossible to subjugate. Had it not been mainly for the Dutch but also the Portuguse and the British, the Sulu would have been absorbed by the Spaniards much earlier than the 19th century, the same Spaniards who forced the Bornean kings Abdul Kahar and Saiful Rijal to flee when they invaded Borneo and practically annexed it to the Philippines for a couple of months. Anyone saying the Sulus are some kind of super Muslims who could defeat almost any Western colonialist that came in their way is doing nothing more than further propagate Orientalist mythology.
And it gets worse when these Sulu super Muslims get turned into instruments of the ultra-awesome global power of China (the same ultra-awesome global power that got conquered by a nation numbering less than 2 million people). They probably turned to assistance towards the Qing, but that doesn't mean that the Sulus were a "tributary" state, a term that has lost any meaning by being so overused by Sinologists obsessed with making pre-modern China an European colonial power. The fact that they have to use such an ill-defined term as "tributary" shows how weak their claims of China doing nothing more than just trade, like any other state and nation in Asia. I mean, by the Sinological definition of "tributary", the Mughal Empire was a "tributary state" to the Ayutthaya kingdom.
China was nothing like a colonial empire in any period of its history. The remarkable thing about China is getting its territory conquered repeatedly by foreigners (Xiongnu, Tibetans, Mongols, Manchu, British), not that it has always been a global ultra-superpower. Even today, China is more like a bigger South Korea than a proper superpower like the US, Russia and the EU.
The Sulu polity survived - as a small rump state - because of inter-European rivalry in the region, not because Muslims are anti-infidel fanatics in general and anti-Christian fanatics in particular that are almost impossible to subjugate. Had it not been mainly for the Dutch but also the Portuguse and the British, the Sulu would have been absorbed by the Spaniards much earlier than the 19th century, the same Spaniards who forced the Bornean kings Abdul Kahar and Saiful Rijal to flee when they invaded Borneo and practically annexed it to the Philippines for a couple of months. Anyone saying the Sulus are some kind of super Muslims who could defeat almost any Western colonialist that came in their way is doing nothing more than further propagate Orientalist mythology.
And it gets worse when these Sulu super Muslims get turned into instruments of the ultra-awesome global power of China (the same ultra-awesome global power that got conquered by a nation numbering less than 2 million people). They probably turned to assistance towards the Qing, but that doesn't mean that the Sulus were a "tributary" state, a term that has lost any meaning by being so overused by Sinologists obsessed with making pre-modern China an European colonial power. The fact that they have to use such an ill-defined term as "tributary" shows how weak their claims of China doing nothing more than just trade, like any other state and nation in Asia. I mean, by the Sinological definition of "tributary", the Mughal Empire was a "tributary state" to the Ayutthaya kingdom.
China was nothing like a colonial empire in any period of its history. The remarkable thing about China is getting its territory conquered repeatedly by foreigners (Xiongnu, Tibetans, Mongols, Manchu, British), not that it has always been a global ultra-superpower. Even today, China is more like a bigger South Korea than a proper superpower like the US, Russia and the EU.
If i'm not mistaken, the only resource in which China was lacking during the Exploration Age was silver.
One place where silver is abundant is Peru. If you can have the Inca Empire survive, then it is probable that the Incas estabilish friendly commercial ties with China as a result of their precious metals. I, however, am skeptical of China being able to turn Tawantinsuyu into a full colony, or even protectorate.
One place where silver is abundant is Peru. If you can have the Inca Empire survive, then it is probable that the Incas estabilish friendly commercial ties with China as a result of their precious metals. I, however, am skeptical of China being able to turn Tawantinsuyu into a full colony, or even protectorate.
Colonization doesn't have to consist of mandarins sent from Beijing to faraway lands.
It could be a powerful trading company based in say Canton/Guangzhou which almost unwittingly builds a maritime empire similar to the Dutch or Portuguese. When they're bullying the Sultan, King, Rajah, Caliph, or whomever, they would claim to work on behalf of the Emperor. And as long as the trading company continues to deliver vast amounts of wealth to the Emperor's coffers, he wouldn't care less how that wealth was obtained. He might hear tales of how the Australian Outback is filled with wild beasts, but he doesn't need to care beyond that. After all, he has plenty of warlords to bribe and soldiers to feed.
Maybe in time, a crisis erupts that forces the Imperial Court to directly take over the colonies, similar to how Company Rule was replaced by the British Raj. But by then, the culture among the mandarins would have totally changed.
That would turn China into a large continental power that is dependent on its maritime empire to subsidize its vast expenses.
It could be a powerful trading company based in say Canton/Guangzhou which almost unwittingly builds a maritime empire similar to the Dutch or Portuguese. When they're bullying the Sultan, King, Rajah, Caliph, or whomever, they would claim to work on behalf of the Emperor. And as long as the trading company continues to deliver vast amounts of wealth to the Emperor's coffers, he wouldn't care less how that wealth was obtained. He might hear tales of how the Australian Outback is filled with wild beasts, but he doesn't need to care beyond that. After all, he has plenty of warlords to bribe and soldiers to feed.
Maybe in time, a crisis erupts that forces the Imperial Court to directly take over the colonies, similar to how Company Rule was replaced by the British Raj. But by then, the culture among the mandarins would have totally changed.
That would turn China into a large continental power that is dependent on its maritime empire to subsidize its vast expenses.