Confederate Sports Culture post-independence.

[Alstein]

Assumptions: CSA wins the Civil War, loses West, gets KY via plebicite and Indian Territory. No future wars with the US. The CSA stays economically behind the USA and closer to Mexico, but starts catching up to the US sometime after WWI.

Baseball- Baseball was taking hold in the South I believe as well as the North, and I can easily see a Confederate League forming. The level of baseball would probably be inferior, and I can see richer Yankee teams claiming guys from the South. Eventually the leagues would collude to keep salaries down, and there would be a "Continental Series". There may be rules differences between Confederate and Union baseball- most likely Confederate baseball would be a quicker game, and maybe more pitcher-friendly due to hotter stadiums.

Post-WWII a World Cup of Baseball may develop with the USA, CSA, Mexico, and Japan fielding teams every four years. Other teams join later- though this World Cup would pale compared to the Rugby World Cup.

CL I guess would be 10 teams, 144 game schedule to start: franchises in Dallas, New Orleans, Tallahassee, Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, Louisville, Memphis, Mobile, and Houston. Later expansion to 16 teams maybe. There would be minor leagues also, which would likely be the basis of new teams. I suspect there may be a couple of Green Bay packers-type "Community Teams" in the Confederate League- probably North Carolina-based.

The affects of Apartheid may cause baseball to take root in South Africa.

Basketball- I don't think it would take hold, even in Kentucky and North Carolina- too much of a "Yankee" sport. Basketball would retain its global popularity.

Football- I suspect this would be a Yankee sport as well, as the equipment costs and violence may keep upper-class whites away, and lower-class folks will have other sports (See below).

Rugby- I could see Rugby taking off, and along with Soccer, being a force for social change in the CSA- as I suspect the CSA would be banned from international competitions much like South Africa eventually. A professional league may form pretty quickly- possibly with promotion/relegation based on university teams. Maybe the SEC schools would dominate in a Premier League. The CSA would be a power in the Rugby World Cup, with rivalries. with Argentina and South Africa

Soccer- the blacks need a sport as well, and I could see soccer taking off among blacks , and maybe even poor whites (who would split between soccer and rugby). This sport would not develop like European soccer I believe, though it would have popularity- and I could even see the CSA doing well in some early World Cups. I suspect that a ban would be the catalyst for integration, as CSA folks would be pretty nationalistic about their sports. I see a rivalry with Mexico forming, though a Mexican influence on soccer in the CSA. The CSA kit would gray/orange from home and orange/ dark blue for away.

Soccer would not take much hold in the USA until the 80s/90s. There would be talk of the CSA and USA both wanting World Cup bids in 2018 and 2022, but no talk of a joint bid.

Boxing- almost entirely a black sport in the South. Suspect boxing would be similar to Mexico.

NASCAR- would not happen. My guess is CSA cars would be too crappy. Post-integration I could see a racetrack in the South (Atlanta or Charlotte) to get a Formula 1 race. Open-Wheel racing is the only racing.

Pro Wrestling- I suspect the style of pro wrestling that would take over the South would be a mix of Bill Watts UWF and lucha libre. I can see a Mexican influence, as Mexicans would be considered whites fairly quickly.

 

[Color-Copycat]

Regarding NASCAR, crappy cars isn't neccessarily a downside... I mean a lot of people only watch it to see the over-the-top mishaps and accidents.

 

[Desmond Hume]

This is a very interesting subject! While it might be possible to criticize the relative lack of butterflies in this scenario (why will there still be the same World Wars? Why will apartheid develop the same way in South Africa?), let's take it piece by piece:

Assumptions: CSA wins the Civil War, loses West, gets KY via plebicite and Indian Territory. No future wars with the US. The CSA stays economically behind the USA and closer to Mexico, but starts catching up to the US sometime after WWI.

Baseball- Baseball was taking hold in the South I believe as well as the North, and I can easily see a Confederate League forming. The level of baseball would probably be inferior, and I can see richer Yankee teams claiming guys from the South. Eventually the leagues would collude to keep salaries down, and there would be a "Continental Series". There may be rules differences between Confederate and Union baseball- most likely Confederate baseball would be a quicker game, and maybe more pitcher-friendly due to hotter stadiums.

Post-WWII a World Cup of Baseball may develop with the USA, CSA, Mexico, and Japan fielding teams every four years. Other teams join later- though this World Cup would pale compared to the Rugby World Cup.

CL I guess would be 10 teams, 144 game schedule to start: franchises in Dallas, New Orleans, Tallahassee, Atlanta, Charlotte, Richmond, Louisville, Memphis, Mobile, and Houston. Later expansion to 16 teams maybe. There would be minor leagues also, which would likely be the basis of new teams. I suspect there may be a couple of Green Bay packers-type "Community Teams" in the Confederate League- probably North Carolina-based.

The affects of Apartheid may cause baseball to take root in South Africa.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. The Continental Series especially sounds like a very intriguing idea; it could be a major catalyst for cultural reconciliation between the two nations. One thought: is it possible the Confederate season would be played in the winter instead of the hot, humid summer? A winter season seems pretty doable in the South.

Basketball- I don't think it would take hold, even in Kentucky and North Carolina- too much of a "Yankee" sport. Basketball would retain its global popularity.

Agreed; even if basketball is invented in the North (it might not be at all), there doesn't seem to be any real need for it in a country that lacks snowy winters.

Football- I suspect this would be a Yankee sport as well, as the equipment costs and violence may keep upper-class whites away, and lower-class folks will have other sports (See below).

I don't know, the violence might actually be an attraction to the upper classes; the Southern aristocracy was pretty in to romantic neo-chivalric stuff, so a sport where dashing young men engage in brutal violence with a real possibility of dying might be exactly the sort of thing they'd go for; maybe it would be like a modern version of medieval jousting or Roman coliseum combat. The aristocracy is probably also not above forcing the lower classes or slaves to engage in such dangerous activity for their amusement.

Rugby- I could see Rugby taking off, and along with Soccer, being a force for social change in the CSA- as I suspect the CSA would be banned from international competitions much like South Africa eventually. A professional league may form pretty quickly- possibly with promotion/relegation based on university teams. Maybe the SEC schools would dominate in a Premier League. The CSA would be a power in the Rugby World Cup, with rivalries. with Argentina and South Africa

Maybe; although rugby's presence probably depends on how much exchange the CSA has with Britain. If more young men from the CSA are going to the US universities than the British ones, they'll probably just pick up American football.

Soccer- the blacks need a sport as well, and I could see soccer taking off among blacks , and maybe even poor whites (who would split between soccer and rugby). This sport would not develop like European soccer I believe, though it would have popularity- and I could even see the CSA doing well in some early World Cups. I suspect that a ban would be the catalyst for integration, as CSA folks would be pretty nationalistic about their sports. I see a rivalry with Mexico forming, though a Mexican influence on soccer in the CSA. The CSA kit would gray/orange from home and orange/ dark blue for away.

Soccer would not take much hold in the USA until the 80s/90s. There would be talk of the CSA and USA both wanting World Cup bids in 2018 and 2022, but no talk of a joint bid.

This I can see; football is the perfect sport for the slaves and lower-class whites because it requires basically no equipment and no expense. Football might become very popular for that reason among those groups; but that might also doom it to secondary status in the hierarchy of sports too, because the upper classes wouldn't want to associate with a sport so closely tied to non-prestigious social groups.

If the CSA does liberalize and integrate as you're projecting, it could become quite a power in international football. I can see an intense rivalry with Mexico developing (and maybe Brazil, for that matter), or with the United States if they pick up the game (and they're probably more likely to do so in a TL where football is already popular elsewhere in N.America and thus less foreign).

Boxing- almost entirely a black sport in the South. Suspect boxing would be similar to Mexico.

Probably; also, it could be a sport that upper-class people are entertained by (i.e., gamble on) but don't participate in. It could easily take on overtones of Roman gladiatorial combat, with slaves bred specifically for the ring battling for the amusement of the masters.

One other thought: if the CSA has a lot of cultural borrowing from Britain going on, the upper classes could easily adopt cricket; it might well spread down to the lower classes too.

 

[birdboy2000]

My understanding was that baseball spread to the south *because* of Union soldiers, and unless you count Missouri the South doesn't get a major league team OTL until the 1960s - it's a pretty Northeastern game until pretty recently. I'd imagine in a free CSA, it won't do nearly as well.

American Football and Basketball would likewise be developed in the Northeast OTL, although they'd have a better USA-wide spread from an early age, if they aren't butterflied out; both developed post-ACW. Hockey's obviously screwed by geography. I have no idea what *will* catch on - one of the northeastern sports or something else entirely - and an ATL author could reasonably take it in practically any direction.

 

[MadMaper 13]

Regarding NASCAR, crappy cars isn't neccessarily a downside... I mean a lot of people only watch it to see the over-the-top mishaps and accidents.

Why do you presume they will race local cars, they would probably buy cars up north and drive them south, but i do not think they could get it anywhere near NASCAR level of professionalism

 

[Color-Copycat]

Because that was what OP was implying?

 

[MerryPrankster]

NASCAR comes from bootlegging, so you'll need someone to establish Prohibition somewhere and have bootleggers build souped-up cars outrun "revenuers" before you can have NASCAR.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

With an ACW POD, wouldn't basketball as we know it be butterflied away? Not that someone working on the Maya would adopt it for modern society.

 

[Intosh]

Assumptions: CSA wins the Civil War, loses West, gets KY via plebicite and Indian Territory. No future wars with the US. The CSA stays economically behind the USA and closer to Mexico, but starts catching up to the US sometime after WWI.

The CSA being economically a quasi colony of the British Empire, Rugby, Polo, Cricket, Soccer and Golf will quickly developed...

 

[Alstein]

I didn't want to get into butterflies TOO much, why I kept it down. That would throw in too many variables. The only thing I threw in was a post-WWII international sports ban (along with South Africa), that would apply to some sports. I think this would cause the CSA to do a slow liberalization, it would be different then South Africa- since the South would be majority White/Hispanic, not majority Black. They'd do just enough to keep the sanctions out.


As for baseball- I've read that a version of the game was played in the South before the Civil War, so I think the game had some roots. It's also not like there would be no contact between the two sides. While a winter season would be interesting, it wouldn't work in the Northern parts of the South- you would have snowouts on occasion and it would be too cold to play.

Cricket is a possibility, but I think poor whites would prefer baseball.


Rugby was popular in the US at one point, and has the same sort of violent aspects as American football, but has the uppercrust connotations. There are enough big universities to support a rugby scene. I do suspect the sport would stay amateur a long time. The rivalry with Argentina is based off them being the hemisphere's rugby power. Could also extend to soccer. The south had/has plenty of presitigious universities of its own- North Carolina and Virginia in particular. One butterfly I anticipate is a few southern private schools gaining in prestige and becoming bigger deals- candidates would be off the top of my head Davidson and William and Mary.

Some form of football would be big among the elites at the big state unis, and I think rugby is most likely.

One of my butterflies is that Hispanics would largely be treated as white in a CSA due to labor concerns and industrialization. I do think outright slavery would have been abolished before 1910, a combination of economic reasons, plus possibly reaction to the Russo-Japanese war. I don't see a Japan-CSA link forming, though that could be an interesting fiction scenario (Combine Southern girls with Japanese school uniforms). One of my predications is a defensive CSA-Mexico alliance, in TTL Mexico is a slightly better place from this and the economic ties.

One thing I'm not sure on is whether the CSA conquers Cuba or not- I suspect the CSA will balk at a US conquest, and it will end up in CSA hands
(Maybe the CSA joins in with the US in the Spanish-American war if/when it happens, or the CSA invades Cuba after the Cuban revolution to prevent Communism- I do see the CSA being fervently anti-communist)

As for NASCAR, I doubt Prohibition would be an issue in the South, so no bootlegging. You'll have your preachers arguing against drinking, and maybe eventually your blue laws- but I suspect fundamentalism will be less of a deal in the South then OTL. I do suspect the South would have its own Auto Industry, with Tuscaloosa or Nashville being the South's Detroit. I don't think Southern cars would be all that good, as not enough people would afford them. I suspect there would no unions in the South, due to fervent anti-socalism/anti-communism (I suspect the South will be more then way then TTL, the North less so), I do think emigration to the north would cause southern wages to rise somewhat though. (another butterfly and why I think the CSA would liberalize some-though would be a state initiative starting with KY/VA/NC)

I don't think basketball would be butterflied away, looking at Naismith's bio. There would be little need for it in the South- and I did butterfly away Kentucky's basketball prowess and Everett Case, who had a lot to do with the formation of the ACC.

As for soccer- I could see a Confederate pro league forming with underpaid black players, who are then sold to Europe for profit, or would jump to Mexico. (I'm assuming Mexico would not adopt the CSA's racial policies, though it's possible)

 

[modelcitizen]

Bullfighting

and

Gladiators

 

[modelcitizen]

The CSA being economically a quasi colony of the British Empire, Rugby, Polo, Cricket, Soccer and Golf will quickly developed...

at the very least polo and golf!

polo for the horsey set, and golf for those who like outings with their "favored" house staff to accompany/caddy

 

[TheSevenLeggedFallyDowner]

I've always thought that if the CSA was separate from the USA, then a different form of Football would develop without the forward pass. In OTL, the forward pass was only instituted in 1906 after President Roosevelt threatened to ban the game for being too violent. It was one of several rule changes to make the game safer, but the forward pass was the biggest one. Even then, many football traditionalists (largely in the South) were against the rule change. I think it would be interesting to see a TL in which the US adds the forward pass, while the CS doesn't and the two leagues develop different rules from there.

 

[nickC]

I've always thought that if the CSA was separate from the USA, then a different form of Football would develop without the forward pass. In OTL, the forward pass was only instituted in 1906 after President Roosevelt threatened to ban the game for being too violent. It was one of several rule changes to make the game safer, but the forward pass was the biggest one. Even then, many football traditionalists (largely in the South) were against the rule change. I think it would be interesting to see a TL in which the US adds the forward pass, while the CS doesn't and the two leagues develop different rules from there.

American football developed from Rugby. With greater contact with Britain, it's possible that football as played in the CSA would retain more connection with standard rugby rules. If politics and economics allows for regular touring parties from Britain, then you could expect southern football to retain closer ties to Rugby rules. This might influence Canada to do the same.

The advent of professionalism in North America and the Rugby League/Union divide will cause problems and you may see a similar divide as found in Australia between professional club football and the amateur game.

 

[Plumber]

The CSA being economically a quasi colony of the British Empire, Rugby, Polo, Cricket, Soccer and Golf will quickly developed...

I would argue the CSA ending up a quasi colony of the US. Though if the war is bloody and there's mutual hostility it could become very influenced by Britain, the sheer fact that the two are mutually largest trading partners would end up squeezing British dominance in favor of the US as the US continues to grow economically.

I've always thought that if the CSA was separate from the USA, then a different form of Football would develop without the forward pass. In OTL, the forward pass was only instituted in 1906 after President Roosevelt threatened to ban the game for being too violent. It was one of several rule changes to make the game safer, but the forward pass was the biggest one. Even then, many football traditionalists (largely in the South) were against the rule change. I think it would be interesting to see a TL in which the US adds the forward pass, while the CS doesn't and the two leagues develop different rules from there.

This happens in TL191

 

[RyuDrago]

What's your opinion about athletics in CSA? Specially in the running specialities, they will allowed black corridors?

A sport i could see as popular in the CSA could be the sail ( Anyway, in a CSA scenery could existed the America Cup?), or the swimming specialities, where i can see a monopoly from white athlets ( if in CSA will be restrictions about the use of pools from black population...).

Tennis also could be an important sport, developed from elites and universities; and considering Florida, maybe also Pelota.

Bowling and iceskating... i guess they will be essentially diffused in the USA.

Probably no Nascar, but F1 indeed could be an opportunity, also because in CSA could prefer to buy cars from Europe ( specially the white elites) than from USA.

I agree on the fact Football ( anyway the CSA could use that term instead to the more Yankee "Soccer" ?) could be one of the major sports of the black population. Naturally, also Basket seemed a natural choice.

Equitation sports i guess also they will be popular; but i bet more to horse racing than to Polo.

And not properly a sport, but why don't including also Chess in the count of popular games in CSA ( also that developed form universities)?

As for women, i will return to the start of the post, to athletics; i guess they were good in gymnastic but generally in other specialities of that branch. Also, i bet to tennis and swimming sports.

For the Baseball, sincerely i don't know. But probably it will be more diffused in the USA. Rugby instead could be possible to be diffused in both countries.

 

[TheSevenLeggedFallyDowner]

This happens in TL191

Dang you Harry Turtledove! Stop using your time machine to steal my ideas in the past.

What's your opinion about athletics in CSA? Specially in the running specialities, they will allowed black corridors?

That's an interesting question. I never considered the idea of black athletes in the CSA. It might be interesting if the owners of sports teams started buying slaves to fill out their teams. They wouldn't have to pay them and once the owners figure out that they can play just as good as whites I could see sports becoming an all-black thing for the entertainment of rich whites.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Bullfighting

and

Gladiators

Better: Gladiator Bulls!



Strange idea: Southern Lacross, aka "Little Brother of War". Assuming *Oklahoma is Confederate this sport may spread out from the Five Civilized Tribes. Interestingly in keeping with Southeast Native tradition it will be played with two short sticks (one in each hand) rather than one long-handled one in the northern version.

 

[Torn but Flying]

Confederate soccer would be very interesting - tempted to create some team names/crests now.

 

[Lyly]

I think equestrian sports will see quite a bit of popularity in the upper classes. Horse racing will be popular even among the upper middle class. Assuming you've got Kentucky in the CSA, you get the Kentucky Derby and the rich heritage of husbandry in the area. Even just with Tennessee though, you're likely to see it spread in popularity.

And I think we'd see a kind of institutional rivalry between the traditionalists in the Eastern CSA and the kind of sports that will come out of Texas and *Oklahoma, which will have more Spanish and Cowboy influences. So you'd probably end up with rodeo being very popular in Texas, *Oklahoma, and to a limited degree in Arkansas and Louisiana, while Horse Racing is the more popular sport pretty much anywhere else.

If the two sports are popular enough, you could see a mixing of them into some sport we've never even heard of.