Communist Denmark: the fate of Iceland and Greenland

[ThomasTheviking]

The point was that they will preempt any such action by engineering a declaration of independence. If Communist Danish troops set foot on that island, their chances of getting it back in their camp go to Hell, because Soviet troops will likely soon follow. Whatever will keep Communist troops from landing there until they can engineer this, is what they will do. They'll come up with some diplomatic pretext for this exclusion, but it will happen. Danish troops simply will not be permitted to set foot on the island.

You keep acting like the US and the USSR were still actually allied in mid-1945, rather than just co-belligerents, and like that status would mean something. We essentially were not, and it did not. If Truman felt the need to secure something against Communist seizure, he would have done so regardless of the USSR's reaction. After all, the USSR was in no shape to continue prosecuting a war, and the United States and United Kingdom were well aware of this.

you can bend the words all you wan't, but officially The USSR and the US were allies in the war against Germany. So you really believe that within a couple of weeks the US can carry out a unilateral annexation (decleration of independence) of Greenland? I'm sorry, but I do believe that things takes a little longer in real life, than in this forum.

IF communist Denmark manages to land troops they will in effect deliver a fait accompli to the US, and all plans for a unilateral declaration of independence. So the final question will be who can racts the fastest, and my claim is that it is easier to ship or fly in some troops, than conducting the major diplomatic exercise of declaring part of another country, as independent.

But hey....we can always agree to disagree.

I must agree with you that the Soviets have no desire to start a war over this....but remember neither has the UK or USA

 

[ThomasTheviking]

The US could throw a spanner in the works by recognizing the government and claim continuity since April 9, 1940 as such stick to that the treaty was valid as contracted by the government representative in Washington and the present government having to observe it - like it or not.

The point is as you well know that Denmark didn't have the military 1945 for doing such. Oceangoing ships were on the bottom of the Baltic.
The Danish Brigade would certainly not support the communist government if such one came about.

It just isn't possible.

Denmark ITTL isn't going to feed Eastern Europe - it'll be devasted by Blumentritt's last stand, I did write so.

Christmas Møller had promised 10.000 troops but had to pull back in the light of internal politics; Brits surely didn't like that. Of course communist Denmark wouldn't want to do any of this and as I alreade wrote won't have the means to do so.

BTW the brits might not ITTL want to lease the large number of minesweepers they did to Denmark as well as let the Kriegsmarine redraftet personnel do part of the job; these units would be off to Norway instead. But they were needed in Danish waters to clear the 28.000 mines laid there during the war. The Red Navy isn't going through for some time.

I missed out on your comments earlier on Blumentritt's last stand. I do not necessarily buy that idea, but I can see that it supports your arguments. My comments have been based on a combatless surrender of Denmark as IOTL, with the German troops being allowed to return to Germany also as IOTL.

I wasn't referring specifically to the Danish Brigade. As seen elsewhere, this "politically untrustworthy" unit would proberly be disarmed relatively quickly, and be replaced by BOPA (and alike) partisans, and the new Danish peoples army. (or whatever the name might be)

Regarding the minesweepers....IOTL a large number of minesweepers were "stolen" back from German harbours in early May by members of the Danish Navy, showing initiative beyond the normal call of duty. Besides the many mines a lot of shiping were going on the Baltic Sea and Danish waters untill the end of the war, so IMHO I do think that a couple of high-prioritized ships can make it through in peacetime.

 

[Devvy]

Fair enough, but pro-neutrality sentiment is not actually neutrality, as Germany found out the hard way in WWI with the United States.

True, but significant pro neutrality sentiment OTL, coupled with a different means of achieving independence ITTL could push Iceland into remaining neutral here was the point I was (not very eloquently) trying to make.

Even now, Icelanders have a belief that they don't need the rest of the world and are fine without anyone else...

 

[arctic warrior]

I missed out on your comments earlier on Blumentritt's last stand. I do not necessarily buy that idea, but I can see that it supports your arguments. My comments have been based on a combatless surrender of Denmark as IOTL, with the German troops being allowed to return to Germany also as IOTL.

It wasn't my idea but I don't find it impossible.

Regarding the minesweepers....IOTL a large number of minesweepers were "stolen" back from German harbours in early May by members of the Danish Navy, showing initiative beyond the normal call of duty. Besides the many mines a lot of shiping were going on the Baltic Sea and Danish waters untill the end of the war, so IMHO I do think that a couple of high-prioritized ships can make it through in peacetime.

ITTL they might not get away with it or perhaps... anyway there was traffic but it was regulated to swept lanes and quite some effort was made to keep those lanes open. Even the RN squadron heading for Copenhagen following May 4. had to use a swept lane.

 

[ThomasTheviking]

It wasn't my idea but I don't find it impossible.



ITTL they might not get away with it or perhaps... anyway there was traffic but it was regulated to swept lanes and quite some effort was made to keep those lanes open. Even the RN squadron heading for Copenhagen following May 4. had to use a swept lane.

I don't find it impossible either. But I am a little unsure as to how much fighting spirits the Germans in Denmark will have left in the beginning of May, not to mention heavy equipment.

I agree that the potential transport to Greenland/Faroe Islands, would also have to use a swept lane through Danish waters.

 

[loughery111]

you can bend the words all you wan't, but officially The USSR and the US were allies in the war against Germany. So you really believe that within a couple of weeks the US can carry out a unilateral annexation (decleration of independence) of Greenland? I'm sorry, but I do believe that things takes a little longer in real life, than in this forum.

IF communist Denmark manages to land troops they will in effect deliver a fait accompli to the US, and all plans for a unilateral declaration of independence. So the final question will be who can racts the fastest, and my claim is that it is easier to ship or fly in some troops, than conducting the major diplomatic exercise of declaring part of another country, as independent.

But hey....we can always agree to disagree.

I must agree with you that the Soviets have no desire to start a war over this....but remember neither has the UK or USA

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I highly doubt that the Communists in Denmark are going to be able to move quickly enough to prevent some faction in Greenland from declaring independence at US behest, which will give the USN reason enough to invoke the Monroe Doctrine, or make some other excuse, and turn around whatever the Danes are able to muster for this. Even at the price of a diplomatic incident, I still think the US will do almost anything short of declare war to maintain control over Greenland; hell, it blockaded a sovereign state less than two decades later to prevent the Soviets from gaining similar basing rights...

And, I maintain, I'm not bending words. I'm just pointing out that the limits of that "official" alliance were, at that point in time, rather severe. The US and USSR were in the process of selling one another out on dozens of issues, and I cannot see the US somehow deciding that their alliance suddenly means something again on this particular one.

 

[arctic warrior]

I don't find it impossible either. But I am a little unsure as to how much fighting spirits the Germans in Denmark will have left in the beginning of May, not to mention heavy equipment.

We could look up the OOB and TO&E somewhere on this fabled internet but it isn't really that important.
Blumentritt wanted to fight a last battle in Denmark as he expressed during the last meeting with Dönitz but the admiral rejected it and Blumentritt accepted that.
Some of his units were of quite questionable value such as the Hungarians but the Germans or at least a few still had a fight in them.
Though with total air superiority it would be a short affair.

 

[Chris S]

The Red Army was beaten by just four hours in terms of the British getting to the Baltic coast first though that was facilitated by the German Commander in Denmark, Blumentritt, effectively offering no resistance to the British once over the Elbe at Lauenberg on May 1st.

I'm tempted to think that IF the Red Army had got to the Jutland Peninsula first, the Germans would have resisted to try and safeguard the ports of Kiel and others that were handling boatloads of refugees from the east. Perhaps we would have seen a Red Army officer joining the British delegation at Luneburg Heath on May 4th to oversee the German surrender.

This seems pretty plausible.

Longer-term, I think we might have seen a more active response to Swedish-backed proposals for the creation of a "neutral" Scandinavia on the Austrian model so you'd have Norway and Denmark outside NATO in exchange for a Soviet withdrawal from Denmark.

This also seems quite plausible.

It's also likely the Russians would hold on to Bornholm.

Don't see why this is likely though. In OTL the Soviets withdrew in 1946 long before NATO formed. Their only caveat was that no foreign troops be stationed there. That is pretty much in line with their acceptance of a neutral Denmark under your scenario.

 

[ThomasTheviking]

We could look up the OOB and TO&E somewhere on this fabled internet but it isn't really that important.
Blumentritt wanted to fight a last battle in Denmark as he expressed during the last meeting with Dönitz but the admiral rejected it and Blumentritt accepted that.
Some of his units were of quite questionable value such as the Hungarians but the Germans or at least a few still had a fight in them.
Though with total air superiority it would be a short affair.

Yes indeed a very short affair. But if the case, it would result in a lot of destruction, hence the Soviets would most likely use overwhelming force. Wonder what the reaction of the Danish Resistance movement would be?

Maybe after having watched what happened in Warzaw, they would just keep a very low profile?

 

[arctic warrior]

Yes indeed a very short affair. But if the case, it would result in a lot of destruction, hence the Soviets would most likely use overwhelming force. Wonder what the reaction of the Danish Resistance movement would be?

Maybe after having watched what happened in Warzaw, they would just keep a very low profile?

Guess the resistance would know to lie dead for the time being.
It would probably make for a lot of confusion on what's gonna happen now.

Interesting thing would be if SHAEF let the Swedes jump the Oeresound to Rescue Sjaelland and drops 2. para brigade around Copenhagen; would expect the Germans in Sjaelland to rapidly surrender to them or be quickly withdrawn to Jylland to stem the Soviet advance.

 

[ThomasTheviking]

Guess the resistance would know to lie dead for the time being.
It would probably make for a lot of confusion on what's gonna happen now.

Interesting thing would be if SHAEF let the Swedes jump the Oeresound to Rescue Sjaelland and drops 2. para brigade around Copenhagen; would expect the Germans in Sjaelland to rapidly surrender to them or be quickly withdrawn to Jylland to stem the Soviet advance.

Interesting plan from the Swedes. Do you have a reference to this somewhere?

 

[arctic warrior]

Interesting plan from the Swedes. Do you have a reference to this somewhere?

One here....

 

[ThomasTheviking]

One here....

Thankyou, that was very interesting. A Great link.

The question I have is what the Swedish Governments' view on such a operation was?

In case for this plan to be executed, a large number of prepatory tasks have to be carrioed out, and this will take some time?

Did the Swedes IOTL come close to carrying the operation out....or did they start the preparations?

I am asking hence it is well known that Sweden for long have had a fear of getting involved in war-like operations, with potential risk for large number of casualties.

 

[arctic warrior]

Thankyou, that was very interesting. A Great link.

The question I have is what the Swedish Governments' view on such a operation was?

In case for this plan to be executed, a large number of prepatory tasks have to be carrioed out, and this will take some time?

Did the Swedes IOTL come close to carrying the operation out....or did they start the preparations?

I am asking hence it is well known that Sweden for long have had a fear of getting involved in war-like operations, with potential risk for large number of casualties.

As I understand Per Albin Hansson was very much ready for going but the German capitulation changed that. Take a look here. Seems like plans were ready but materiel lacking in some areas.
Interesting thing that the Swedes were also going to Bornholm! No Soviet occupation of that in this case.

 

[ThomasTheviking]

As I understand Per Albin Hansson was very much ready for going but the German capitulation changed that. Take a look here. Seems like plans were ready but materiel lacking in some areas.
Interesting thing that the Swedes were also going to Bornholm! No Soviet occupation of that in this case.

Once more thank you for a very interesting link, with great information. You seem to know your stuff .

One thing I noticed though, was that if the ordre was given May 5th, the earliest date of invasion would have been may 18th! Wouldn't the Soviets have taken the whole country over by this date?...given the superiority of the Soviets, the state of the German forces...and not least the fact that IOTL Germany surrendered on May 9th?

I thought initially that the Swedes was ready to execute the "invasion" with a couples of days notice....but with almost 2 weeks in final preparation time, it seems a little slow "to get on its' feet".

 

[arctic warrior]

Once more thank you for a very interesting link, with great information. You seem to know your stuff .

One thing I noticed though, was that if the ordre was given May 5th, the earliest date of invasion would have been may 18th! Wouldn't the Soviets have taken the whole country over by this date?...given the superiority of the Soviets, the state of the German forces...and not least the fact that IOTL Germany surrendered on May 9th?

I thought initially that the Swedes was ready to execute the "invasion" with a couples of days notice....but with almost 2 weeks in final preparation time, it seems a little slow "to get on its' feet".

Yes they seemed to be dragging their feet but the Danish brigade was ready and perhaps some Swedish units could have gotten off as well though I unsure they would have dared do it... consensus you know!

 

[ThomasTheviking]

Yes they seemed to be dragging their feet but the Danish brigade was ready and perhaps some Swedish units could have gotten off as well though I unsure they would have dared do it... consensus you know!

Yeah I know!

Also know that the Danish Brigade was quickly in, and did take part in some combat in Copenhagen, with Danish collaborators. But the Swedes would proberly not insert Swedish units piecemeal, due to the vulnerability of doing so. But of couse it would depens on the situation I guess.