Combining the French and Spanish thrones

[martin76]

Well Joseph (I) died in 1711 - that made Leopold the Habsburg contender for the Spanish throne quasi automatic also Emperor of teh HRE and gaining the Austrian lands too. That made him too powerful for England, which asked for peace (Churchill was ousted too). So a war that already ran AGAINST the French turned into a draw and the Ferench got Spain without being allowed to Merge the two kingdoms.

Can't see how France got more in the deal.

I miss that Union: Spain und Austria. Franz Josef I was German, Czech, Burgundy and Spanish blood!
How would it have been the history if Franz Josef would have been Emperor and Catholic and Apostholic King! If he was Emperor of Austria, King of Spain, King of Hungary, King of Bohemia etc etc...
He was a descendant of the Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella ... Franz Joseph was also a Trastamara.

Von Manthofen, Spain never belonged to the Frenchmen... nor in 1715 nor never...(or British).

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

Von Manthofen, Spain never belonged to the Frenchmen... nor in 1715 nor never...(or British).

Thats what I meant by not being allowed to merge the kingdoms

Why do you mention Franz Josef???

 

[martin76]

Thats what I meant by not being allowed to merge the kingdoms

Why do you mention Franz Josef???

Spain would have never accepted a French ruled...not in 1808 and not in 1715..

Well, I mention Franz Josef because if Charles IIII Spain and VI Austria would have joined the Austrian, hungarian, Czech and Spanish Crowns.. in 1914, FJ I would have been Kaiser von Österreich, , Rey Católico de Espana und Szen István Apostoli Király.. in fact the fist Spanish blood king to be in America was Maximilian von Österreich!!! and Franz Josef, Frantisek Josef, Ferenc Josef etc etc was direct descendant of Isabella and Fernando, the Catholic Monarchs... It s funny the fist descendent of them to be in America is not Charles I or Philipp II or Charles III... but Erzherzog Ferdinand Maximilian Joseph Maria von Österreich, Prince of Hungary and Bohemia, Count of Habsburg, Prince of Lorraine, Emperor of Mexico and King of the world, born in Schönbrunn Palace and was the first descendant of the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella who crossed the ocean and walked on the land of America...

 

[LeCHVCK]

Spain would have never accepted a French ruled...not in 1808 and not in 1715..

Well, I mention Franz Josef because if Charles IIII Spain and VI Austria would have joined the Austrian, hungarian, Czech and Spanish Crowns.. in 1914, FJ I would have been Kaiser von Österreich, , Rey Católico de Espana und Szen István Apostoli Király.. in fact the fist Spanish blood king to be in America was Maximilian von Österreich!!! and Franz Josef, Frantisek Josef, Ferenc Josef etc etc was direct descendant of Isabella and Fernando, the Catholic Monarchs... It s funny the fist descendent of them to be in America is not Charles I or Philipp II or Charles III... but Erzherzog Ferdinand Maximilian Joseph Maria von Österreich, Prince of Hungary and Bohemia, Count of Habsburg, Prince of Lorraine, Emperor of Mexico and King of the world, born in Schönbrunn Palace and was the first descendant of the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella who crossed the ocean and walked on the land of America...

You know the butterfly effect right? The revolutionary wars will never happen so Franz Josef and Maximilian will not live.

 

[jczak97]

I don't know much on the subject but wasn't Philip V of Spain, both Bourbon and the Spanish Habsburgs? (I only know what I know from my AP Euro History Class)

PS- I forgot the name for the Spanish Dynasty, and idk if Habsburg is correct

 

[Harald Sigurdson II]

The Bourbons did win the war; at the cost of Spanish involvement in Northern Europe. The Netherlands and Italy were lost, but the Bourbons did get a Bourbon on the Spanish throne despite the treaties made with England promising they would refuse such an offer.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Western Europe needs a new geographic name for France, Spain, and Portugal. Perhaps like Iberia, Greek for Spain, we could name it Espagney(English transliteration) for the French for Spain. Could anybody think of a name based on one of the languages for a region if this happened?

 

[funnyhat]

Western Europe needs a new geographic name for France, Spain, and Portugal. Perhaps like Iberia, Greek for Spain, we could name it Espagney(English transliteration) for the French for Spain. Could anybody think of a name based on one of the languages for a region if this happened?

West Romania? Or maybe just Romania, with the Eastern European country called Dacia or something else.

 

[martin76]

I don't know much on the subject but wasn't Philip V of Spain, both Bourbon and the Spanish Habsburgs? (I only know what I know from my AP Euro History Class)

PS- I forgot the name for the Spanish Dynasty, and idk if Habsburg is correct

Yes, the king Phlip V was Bourbon by father and Habsburg by grandmother (father line). In fact, Philip IV was his great-grandfather.

You know the butterfly effect right? The revolutionary wars will never happen so Franz Josef and Maximilian will not live.

Why not?

West Romania? Or maybe just Romania, with the Eastern European country called Dacia or something else.

Not Romania. Maybe West Empire: Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium and Italy.

 

[jczak97]

Yes, the king Phlip V was Bourbon by father and Habsburg by grandmother (father line). In fact, Philip IV was his great-grandfather.

So then wouldn't be a considered merging of The thrones after Phillip 5 would have passed. Followed by when ever when doesn't have an heir, being absorbed into a bourbon-hasburg blob out in western Europe

 

[funnyhat]

Not Romania. Maybe West Empire: Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium and Italy.

I wouldn't rule out "Romania". Remember that the modern state of Romania dates only to 1859, which would be after the creation of this super-state.

Keep in mind that the French language in its early days was called Romanz, and to this day the French-speaking part of Switzerland is usually called la Suisse Romande or Romandie.

 

[Kingpoleon]

I think a combining of the thrones would eventually lead to the languages mixing. If Spain retained southern Italy and France gained the little bit of northern Italy needed, we would have a very Latinic culture. But anyway, on the name, perhaps the Romanz Francia? On the few already suggested, perhaps it would be like Galicia(if Romania would be chosen); one in Eastern Europe and one in Western Europe.

 

[Xenophonte]

Romance

I wouldn't rule out "Romania". Remember that the modern state of Romania dates only to 1859, which would be after the creation of this super-state.

Keep in mind that the French language in its early days was called Romanz, and to this day the French-speaking part of Switzerland is usually called la Suisse Romande or Romandie.

That post was somewhat confused ... Romance is not a name that applies only to a
Frankish dialect or part of Switzerland, is an adjective that describes the Latin origin of spoken Latin Europe Languages (including Romania and Switzerland no German speaker. By extension we talk about languages or dialects Romances (derived from Rome, as is the if the Swiss dialect to be similar French and Italian but with its own identity is applied the name to the Romance and to the region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages

 

[Xenophonte]

Dynastic Language

I think a combining of the thrones would eventually lead to the languages mixing. If Spain retained southern Italy and France gained the little bit of northern Italy needed, we would have a very Latinic culture. But anyway, on the name, perhaps the Romanz Francia? On the few already suggested, perhaps it would be like Galicia(if Romania would be chosen); one in Eastern Europe and one in Western Europe.

If you want to be a dynastic union leading an empire or nation,that is more than the sum of its parts ... must be before they take root nationalism.

It would perhaps like Navarra and France, but being Castile and Aragon (before joining) much more important, would join under a common King, which perhaps would spend his heir to reside in the Lower kingdom itself.

As for the language the geographical distances and difficulties in moving people and goods in large quantities by land during Middle Ages and early Modern Era, idiomatic prevent any mixture or the emergence of a lingua franca.

With regard to language used by the royal court, the more likely the native language of the dynasty, besides being used the language of use of residence at the time the Court.

One consequence is that with an absent king, ruling through regents and / or ministers, the control over the nobility, essential for state consolidation conditioner will decrease in the smallest country in the union. ''

 

[Xenophonte]

Nota Bene

Note : In diverse cartography and diverse documents the name of this region (Galitzia) of mid-eastern Europe exactly usually appears writing in the same way that the one of the region of the extreme northwest of the Iberian Peninsula, thus recommends caution to discern with respect to what European region is treating in such cases.


Galitzia or Galicia is the one name Region of Central Europe . of takes its name from first Capital Region, City of Halicz (Polish writing, in Ukrainian is written Галич, Galich ), in present the Ukraine.
From around Century XIX, Galitzia consists of the area that is to the north of the Carpathians right, to the east of Small Poland and to the north and Transilvania (the northwest) and Moldova ( Romania ).





Diferent names of Region (in diferent languages)

• German : Galizien
• Spanish : Galitzia or Galicia (the use of the first form is recommended to avoid the confusion with the Spanish (self-government ) Autonomous Communities of the same name)
• Slovakian : Halič
• Hungarian : Galicia (or, formerly, Gácsország)
• Polish : Galicja
• Portuguese : Galicia
• Rumanian : Galiţia
• Ukrainian : Галичина (Halechená)

1772, Galitzia became the greater part of the territory annexed by Austria in First Partition of Poland .
In this way, the region of Austrian control between Poland and the Ukraine was well-known as Kingdom of Galitzia and Lodomeria ( Lodomeria is seen ), with the purpose of to despise the Hungarian pretensions on this territory.
Nevertheless, an ample portion of Little Poland (Mał opolska) also was added to this province, that changed the geographic reference of the Galitzia term.

 

[martin76]

Note : In diverse cartography and diverse documents the name of this region (Galitzia) of mid-eastern Europe exactly usually appears writing in the same way that the one of the region of the extreme northwest of the Iberian Peninsula, thus recommends caution to discern with respect to what European region is treating in such cases.


Galitzia or Galicia is the one name Region of Central Europe . of takes its name from first Capital Region, City of Halicz (Polish writing, in Ukrainian is written Галич, Galich ), in present the Ukraine.
From around Century XIX, Galitzia consists of the area that is to the north of the Carpathians right, to the east of Small Poland and to the north and Transilvania (the northwest) and Moldova ( Romania ).

Diferent names of Region (in diferent languages)

• German : Galizien
• Spanish : Galitzia or Galicia (the use of the first form is recommended to avoid the confusion with the Spanish (self-government ) Autonomous Communities of the same name)
• Slovakian : Halič
• Hungarian : Galicia (or, formerly, Gácsország)
• Polish : Galicja
• Portuguese : Galicia
• Rumanian : Galiţia
• Ukrainian : Галичина (Halechená)

1772, Galitzia became the greater part of the territory annexed by Austria in First Partition of Poland .
In this way, the region of Austrian control between Poland and the Ukraine was well-known as Kingdom of Galitzia and Lodomeria ( Lodomeria is seen ), with the purpose of to despise the Hungarian pretensions on this territory.
Nevertheless, an ample portion of Little Poland (Mał opolska) also was added to this province, that changed the geographic reference of the Galitzia term.

Galitzia and Austrohungarian Empire are the same... very beautiful place and nobody explain why we can see a Galitzia in Poland/Ukrainja and other one in Spain...

I don´t think Romania is a good name because Rome is not the origin of that Kingdoms...but barbarian kings... France: Franks Spain: Goths... French and Spanish languages came from Latin... as English...(60% english words came from latin: 30% right and 30% from French), It is funny, Spanish came from Latin and however the phonetic is not Latin...I think the join crown between Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium and Italy would have been the West Empire.

About a common language is possible, probably a kind of evolved latin.. Most languages have been invented by nationalists in the nineteenth century: Portuguese - Galician, Serbian and croatian etc etc etc

And the capital?
I think ideally in Lisbon (or Italy or France could compete with the Spanish and Portuguese overseas Dominions).

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Galitzia and Austrohungarian Empire are the same... very beautiful place and nobody explain why we can see a Galitzia in Poland/Ukrainja and other one in Spain...

Probably cognate with "Celt". There is also Galatia in Asia Minor (as in Paul's Epistle to). So, "Galatia" is any of three areas where Celts settled.

 

[funnyhat]

That post was somewhat confused ... Romance is not a name that applies only to a
Frankish dialect or part of Switzerland, is an adjective that describes the Latin origin of spoken Latin Europe Languages (including Romania and Switzerland no German speaker. By extension we talk about languages or dialects Romances (derived from Rome, as is the if the Swiss dialect to be similar French and Italian but with its own identity is applied the name to the Romance and to the region.

No, I understand that completely. My point is that it was not inevitable that the name Romania was restricted to modern-day country north of Bulgaria. It could have been used to apply to a French/Spanish/Italian/Portguese superstate as well, given that all of them speak Romance languages and were formerly part of the Roman Empire.

 

[Xenophonte]

Names

No, I understand that completely. My point is that it was not inevitable that the name Romania was restricted to modern-day country north of Bulgaria. It could have been used to apply to a French/Spanish/Italian/Portguese superstate as well, given that all of them speak Romance languages and were formerly part of the Roman Empire.

The problem beyond the impossibility of creating that state ,only Charlemagne achieving something similar during his life.

So that it persists, is that more than a united empire would ,according to the Pod, a conglomeration of various states and peoples without more in common than their ruler as the Habsburg dynasty Dominions
in OTL or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Do not it would be adopted the name of Romania for the State or Romance for hypothetical lingua franca, more correctly, the State would call self: Roman (as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation in Otl).

 

[Xenophonte]

About a common language is possible, probably a kind of evolved latin.. Most languages have been invented by nationalists in the nineteenth century: Portuguese - Galician, Serbian and croatian etc etc etc

And the capital?
I think ideally in Lisbon (or Italy or France could compete with the Spanish and Portuguese overseas Dominions).[/QUOTE/]

The capital city would be any great city in use of residence at the time by royal Court.


A kind of evolved Latin ..

It is not possible as there are languages evolved from the (low) Latin: The Spanish and the French .; which are closely linked to the dominant ethnic group absorbing and assimilating peripherals, built the current National identities in both nations.

To have the possibility of emergence of a new language of another or others, the interaction of various groups with different languages are needed for long periods of time and / or isolated from the main line.

This would not be the case in the Pod, for more stable dynastic union, the interaction between large populations separated by geographical and cultural barriers would be close to zero.

The nationalist not invent any language, just recovered and / or modernized in some cases, languages or semi rural dialects (such as Galician, Basque modern
or Norwegian) or built a modern language based on the oldest version and / or prestigious (Modern Greek).

Nor Serbian and Croatian Language needed to be invented as they were spoken uninterruptedly in their original regions,despite not having a nation-state itself for centuries.

Regarding the Galician and Portuguese are the same dialect that was spoken in Galicia and northern Portugal, who after political separation were differentiated: while spoken in Portugal to the prestigious category of national language of Portugal raised the Gallego became an exclusively oral dialect in rural Galicia, culturally overwhelmed by the prestige of Castilian.

It's the national language of Spain and used to express by literate classes of the region and the rest of the nation until the Romanticism (politician-literary movement) influenced throughout Europe in search and recovery of own historical-cultural values of each ethnic group subject (real or just self-perceived) to a Dominant.