Colonizing America is Hard

So, I really don't understand why Valdemar is being blamed for bringing slavery in this discussion.


Valdemar wrote that slaves were transported to Caribbean sugar islands as "settlers" when they were actually transported to those islands as disposable labor.

He then went on further to claim that indentured servitude and slavery were the same process and suffered the same mortality rates when they are in no way the same process and in no way suffered the same mortality rates.

We are not debating the morality of it or not...
I'm not debating the morality of slavery.

I'm explaining the huge differences between indentured servitude and slavery, the huge differences in the intentions behind indentured servitude and slavery, and the huge differences in outcomes of indentured servitude and slavery for the humans caught up in the process to someone who somehow believes slavery was an equivalent to indentured servitude and slaves were viewed as colonists.

... we are debating the means how a region can be populated in order to be successfuly colonized.
The people of the time did not view slavery as a way to successfully populate colonies. Slaves were disposable labor units, not "colonists", not "settlers", and definitely not human beings.
 
Don't worry about Don Lardo...

...He's incredibly rude. He has only one TL, 7 posts, 442 viewings. He routinely criticises other people with a lot more up than he's prepared to do. Read his TL - he was taken apart.

I do HMS Heligoland and I've been forced to tell him that I'll report him to the moderators if he continues his harrassment. Examination of his posts reveals that the majority are self-satisfied criticisms.

I wonder if you've 'arrived' when Don Lardo criticises you?:rolleyes:
 
Bless you, Valdemar, for a wise man...

...My apologies for going off-thread.

Colonisation seems in general a difficult task and not for the faint-hearted. Governments and groups of merchants and missionaries seem to be the most successful. Even the conquistadores could be considered as violent missionaries (of a type I'd cheerfully run through with my cutlass).
 
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... I've been forced to tell him that I'll report him to the moderators if he continues his harrassment.


"Harassment" in an exchange of PMs you began. :rolleyes:

As for Valdemar, stating that indentured servitude and slavery were in any way equivalent is simply vile.
 
The people of the time did not view slavery as a way to successfully populate colonies. Slaves were disposable labor units, not "colonists", not "settlers", and definitely not human beings.

I dispute that they were not seen as a way to populate colonies. They clearly were not considered "people" but they provided the way to clear more land and bring more farmers, allowing the region to be "populated" in the way that the colonists wanted (i.e. more upper cast European masters). Also, it definitively gave the means to ensure that regions that before belonged to native tribes were not reconquered neither reverted to nature. Of course, as you said, the slave manpower needed to be constantly replaced. But how many areas where slavery was adopted were abandoned after all?
 
The people of the time did not view slavery as a way to successfully populate colonies. Slaves were disposable labor units, not "colonists", not "settlers", and definitely not human beings.

From an amoral perspective, slaves definitely did aid in populating colonies, if not directly. Its just really hard to attract a labor force to the desolate wilds. On the other hand, attracting people to be rich managers of a captive labor force is easier . . . and the captive labor force gets no say about whether it ends up in the wilds or not. Slavery and colonization went hand-in-hand in OTL, and its probably not a coincidence. From the American South to the Caribbean to the haciendados to the lekker leuwe.
 
Slavery and colonization went hand-in-hand in OTL, and its probably not a coincidence.

It wasn't a coincidence, no one would have move to the Caribbean and set up a sugar plantation is they didn't have a labor force.

The issue here is the matter of intent. Slaves were not transported to colonize the islands, slaves were not "settlers" or "colonists". Instead, slave were transported to the islands as just another material need the true settlers and colonists required.

In that manner, the transportation of slaves was intended to help colonization just like the importation of other items like building materials, bolts of cloth, or barrels of liquor was intended to help colonization.
 
The next time you allow us a peek at your Klan hood I'll bring it to the attention of the moderators.

How about you not accuse other people of being Ku Klux Klan members for disagreeing with you? Also, don't threaten people with reporting them. It's obnoxious, and when you're this out of line yourself, it's doubly so.
 
It wasn't a coincidence, no one would have move to the Caribbean and set up a sugar plantation is they didn't have a labor force.

The issue here is the matter of intent. Slaves were not transported to colonize the islands, slaves were not "settlers" or "colonists". Instead, slave were transported to the islands as just another material need the true settlers and colonists required.

In that manner, the transportation of slaves was intended to help colonization just like the importation of other items like building materials, bolts of cloth, or barrels of liquor was intended to help colonization.

The plantation economy in America have it's roots in the Portuguese colonization of Brazil. The Portuguese had no idea what to do with their territory in Brazil, so they decided to try out sugar plantations, like they already had on Sao Tomé and Madeira. However they actually didn't try African slaves at first. The thought of the cost of transporting labour from Africa scared the Portuguese. So at first they tried to force the natives, but it failed because of
a) the natives lacked the necessary skills to become agricultural labour
b) they escaped all the time
c) diseases
It even failed after the Portuguese offered the natives salaries, since they completely lacked interest. After this fiasco the Portuguese planters tried to import labour from Portugal, but the Portuguese laborers all escaped too (later the Caribbean Colonial Powers made the same mistake when they tried to avoid being dependent on Portuguese slave trade, however they soon started to trade slave on their own). So then the only option left was to import slaves from Africa, an expensive measure, but one that ultimately made profit.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
How about you not accuse other people of being Ku Klux Klan members for disagreeing with you? Also, don't threaten people with reporting them. It's obnoxious, and when you're this out of line yourself, it's doubly so.

I would suggest looking at Don Lardo's posting history, he has in general been rude, insulted people directly and in behaved condensenting and obnoxious*, I doesn't appriciate being compared to klansman and being threaten over a rather neutral comment. So I don't think that a warning are going to teach him anything.

*Yes I know we can say that about half this boards posters, but Don Lardo goes the step beyond that, to the point that every comment of his more or less are a insult of other peoples intelligence and knowledge.
 
...He's incredibly rude. He has only one TL, 7 posts, 442 viewings. He routinely criticises other people with a lot more up than he's prepared to do. Read his TL - he was taken apart.

I do HMS Heligoland and I've been forced to tell him that I'll report him to the moderators if he continues his harrassment. Examination of his posts reveals that the majority are self-satisfied criticisms.

I wonder if you've 'arrived' when Don Lardo criticises you?:rolleyes:

Just because someone is being a dick doesn't give you the right to be a dick back.
 
Don Lardo, I have to say that I disagree with your point that Slaves under spanish rule were considered nothing but disposable labor. Slavery had a much longer history in Spain besides simply colonization. Throughout the 1260's Alfonso X the Wise, decreed in his Siete Partidas that masters of slaves could not interfere with who their slaves married, and in fact must make an effort to ensure that married slaves were allowed to work together. The children of those marriages would take whatever status the mother had, including freedom if she was free. Under Spanish law, slaves were allowed to inherit property, and could even purchase freedom. If they were maltreated they did have a right to be heard by a judge. Now Alfonso's decrees were all based on Roman laws of slavery, and were even considered more liberal.

These liberal laws were not put to an end until 1522 after Charles V was pressured to issue laws that would restrict freedom of movement, bearing arms, and marriage. This was in response to a slave rebellion in 1521. But even the new laws were considered an immoral decision by many within the royal court and men like Bartolemas da Casas.

But even after the new laws Spanish liberal slave laws still played a role in Latin America. Slaves continued to be able to purchase freedom. During the 1800’s and 1700’s Slaves set up totally legal Cabildo’s which served as community funds for the purchase and housing of fellow Africans, these were organized on internal African ethnic rules, with Wolofs helping Wolofs and Kongolese helping Kongolese for instance. Slaves also had legal recourse and I have read the court records of a young African slave’s official complaints over a owner who raped and beat her.

As to the question of were the Slaves settlers or not. I would say they certainly were. They did not simply hack sugar cane and die like many people think. Slaves brought over from Africa were not mindless zombies, and brought over many important skills. Hydraulic mills and blacksmith shops were also part of the activities of the Slaves. Spaniards did oversee much of the work, but day to day maintenance and the refining of sugar itself were due to the expertise and skill of the Africans at work there. Africans also grew and tended personal gardens and even entire farms on Hispaniola. What’s more Spanish settlement and even legal control was only restricted to a small area around San Domingo, while Africans and Indians mainly ran the rest of the Island.

Archaeological finds have turned up examples of early Iron works, pottery, and settlements that were built totally separate from Spanish control. These all show a clear example of Africans settling and intermarrying with local Indians.

Spanish slavery was not the same “chattel” type slavery that the British, French or Dutch instituted.
 
Something inspired by the Vinland discussion we had recently.

There seems to be a feeling that to settle North America, you sail west, and, lo, endless land and riches await.

Yet Roanoke failed. Numerous French colonization attempts in North and South America failed. Darien failed. Rio De Janero was abandoned after its initial colonization. Jamestown, Plymouth Bay also failed. New Amsterdam was doing very poorly before Van Stuyvesant took over.

I think this is something we forget when discussing Vinland, and colonization of America in general.

Um, kindof didn't spot this thread first time around, and I though I had something to add...

Climate-appropriate coping skills matter. The French were not well set up for coping with North American winters. And the British...British colonists from city environments, who left for religous reasons were almost incredibly badly suited.

The Norse, on the other hand, came from a similar climate. And the settlers had an immediate history of settlemnts in similar or worse places in their cultural history. They were the chidren and grandchildren of those who made a serious go at Greenland and Iceland.
 
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