Collection of opportunities in WWII

[Grey Wolf]

Ukrainians made up the largest portion of the SS.

Well, it depends on the time-period

However, after Stalingrad, Hitler took more extreme decisions. In January 1942, he authorised Himmler to create new Waffen-SS units. However, the manpower was simply not available and young native Germans were conscripted – despite the protests of parents and from the Wehrmacht. The original pedigree of the Himmler’s idea for the SS was being diluted – he wanted ideologically pure volunteers; those who were willing to fight and die for the cause. Now, the new units were being made up of conscripts. To go with this, Waffen-SS units were made up of men from Eastern Europe. They went completely in the face of Nazi racial purity but they were needed to fight the Partisans who were becoming more and more successful in the east. The sole qualification to join was a hatred of communism. The Waffen-SS was to include Croats, Albanians, Russians, Ukrainians, and Caucasians etc. Over 100,000 Ukrainians responded to Himmler’s call in April 1943.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/waffen-ss.htm

This is almost two years after Barbarossa. If the Ukrainians had been brought on-side in the beginning, treated like the Slovaks or the Croatians as a people whom the Germans could do business with, then they would have been far more useful to them

Grey Wolf

 

[AMBOMB]

Its nice that you can continually rubbish other people

As for conquered people, take a look at the SS and see the foreign legions there, and which peoples were considered near-Aryan enough to be able to enroll. There is no reason why a racial ideology where half of it is grey could not have decided the Ukrainians were worthy of being treated as allies. After all, the Slovaks and the Croats and the Bulgars were all Slavic

Hitler may have been supreme in that degree, but Nazi Germany was NOT a top-down state. It was a feudal state and increasingly its feudal lords were able to exercise policy independent of Hitler, and to gain influence vis-a-vis one another. This is not the army we are talking about here, this is other ideologues, other Nazis, others with beliefs and power bases which they would and did use to influence Hitler

Grey Wolf

Ukraine was not an independent country. It was part of the USSR. You can't have part of a country as an ally. They could've done what Japan did with Manchuria and made it a nominally independent country with a puppet government. But, what would've been the point of that?
Fuedal lords in Nazi Germany? Even if there were, Hitler still controlled the military. So, how exactly did they exercise influence?

 

[Nicole]

Ukraine was not an independent country. It was part of the USSR. You can't have part of a country as an ally. They could've done what Japan did with Manchuria and made it a nominally independent country with a puppet government. But, what would've been the point of that?

They had done it before... Look at Slovakia, Croatia...

 

[AMBOMB]

Google on the basis of this

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=antwerp+v1+v2&meta=

And follow the links that appeal to you

I think people today under-estimate the damage that could be causes by such a weapon as a V2. Not only with a 1000 kg warhead, but also the impact of the missile hitting the ground. It could destroy or damage up to 600 houses in a densely-populated area.Grey Wolf

Bullshit. A 1,000 kg warhead won't damage anything than a few hundred yards away. And the speed of the V-2 lessened the damage that it did because the warhead burrowed into the ground before it exploded.

Eisenhower was freaked out when advised that if the Germans used V1s against the D Day embarkation ports he might not have anything left worthy of embarking.

Grey Wolf

First of all, the first V-1 launch at Britain wasn't until June 15, 1944. Second of all, the V weapons were unguided. The Germans would've had to have gotten so ridiculously lucky to hit an embarkation port it's not even worth discussing.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Bullshit. A 1,000 kg warhead won't damage anything than a few hundred yards away. And the speed of the V-2 lessened the damage that it did because the warhead burrowed into the ground before it exploded.


First of all, the first V-1 launch at Britain wasn't until June 15, 1944. Second of all, the V weapons were unguided. The Germans would've had to have gotten so ridiculously lucky to hit an embarkation port it's not even worth discussing.

Don't be stupid and don't talk to me like that. If it can hit London, if it can hit Antwerp, if it can hit Liege, then it could have hit Southampton or Portsmouth, they are NOT small places. There were LOADS of V1 launch installations being built in Northern France. British intelligence was not asleep, they knew what they were and what they signified. Obviously they kept Eisenhower informed.

The V1s may have been unguided missiles, but they were not randomly-targeted. The Germans knew where the target cities were. They would focus in on a bearing. You couldn't guarantee what you hit, but you could be pretty sure that a fair enough percentage would hit the target.

And as for the V2 the range of its effectiveness was enhanced by hitting the ground. It says destroyed OR DAMAGED. If you can find some figures which say otherwise, then I will consider them.

Grey Wolf

 

[Soyuz]

On the question of allies...

Maybe hindsight was in fact needed to avoid Italy. But really, what did it do? Conquer a country with no military? Be able to ship volunteer divisions? Other than that, it was more trouble than help.

Now, the best ally Germany had was undoubtably Japan - trying to take on Germany's nearby enemy Britain and slowing down USA as much as it can. Unfortunately Japan was too far away to provide any immediate help.

Finland is in the middle - quite strong, but still just out of reach to descisively help. And it wasn't commited to the Nazi cause to stick around and make certain sacrifices.

The rest of the european allies? Too small, too outdated, too far behind. Germany has to spend resources to help them instead.

not so much sarcasm as shock - the Germans put quite a lot of effort into encryption
arguably it is too good - and so they assume it will not be broken

And yet the Allies broke Enigma quickly which surely didn't help Germany. Doesn't sound as a "too good" encription.

The problem is not superweapons per se but too much ambitious development in too many areas - helicopters, jets, laser rangefinder tanks, rockets

Exactly my point. Build some panthers instead.

 

[Peter Cowan]

As suggested in an earlier post,

Also look at :-

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/antwerp.html

This highlights two things.

V1/V2 were enormously destructive where they hit. In the months October - December 1944, 590 hits rendered over 2000 homes destroyed / uninhabitable, 6000 badly damaged and 23 000 lightly damaged. There were over 1700 deaths and 4500 injured

They had only marginal effects on the amount of supplies the port could handle. most of those hitting the town not impacting near the port area. Of those that did, 1 ship was sunk, 16 damaged and while locs, marshalling yards and a refinery were damaged none was put out of action.


More accurate guidance systems and more reliable V2s (failure rates could be as high as 70%) might have made a difference, although experience with SCUD missiles suggest that the 1940's technology wasn't up to it.

 

[jolo]

I've seen some interesting mention, and possible photographs, of quite advanced German computers at Peenemunde

At which point, also, were British planes better than what Germany had ? A lot of what they started the war with were pretty crap - the Faery Battle for example, and even the Defiant was slower than the Me 110 (one of the fastest aircraft in the world at the time). The Bf109 is usually compared badly to the Spitfire, but whilst the Spitfire may have been slightly superior it wasn't THAT much of a gap as the 109s contested dogfights on their merit. It is interesting to note that both types remained in use till the end of the war in constantly-updated versions.

The Zuse Computers were based on mechanical program execution, therefore rather slow and unreliable. Afaik, they were only used for numerical calculations. I don't know about the control systems of the rockets - I suppose they were similar to the ones used on battle ships on both sides for fire control.

The British had at that time the first fully electronic computers, and decyphered most German codes with it.

Slightly better planes are a big advantage, I'd say. Especially in combination with radar.

Also, the Germans weren't advancing as fast as the Allies during the war - but that's partly because the US entered the war.

If I'd give each country a technology index from 0 (stone age) to 100 (leading nation), Germany would be at 94, GB at 96, Japan at 80, and the US at 100 in the beginning of WWII. Though that numbers are just guesses, and they simplify the fact that each nation was leading in some areas - the Germans with rockets, tanks, jets, and others, the British with radar, computers, decryption, and more, Japan with Torpedos and Battle Ships, the US with planes, production, and so on. As of January 1945, I'd give Germany, GB, and Japan 65, 80, and 70 points, respectively - Germany fell back more and more, especially if the quantity and usefulness of the high tech is taken in account (the "miracle weapons" of Germany couldn't compare with the ones of the US).

 

[jolo]

Ukrainians made up the largest portion of the SS.

I'm wondering the Nazis appear not always to be as picky as one might think. Still it's nothing in comparison to the possibilities, thanks to racist policies.

 

[Grey Wolf]

The Zuse Computers were based on mechanical program execution, therefore rather slow and unreliable. Afaik, they were only used for numerical calculations. I don't know about the control systems of the rockets - I suppose they were similar to the ones used on battle ships on both sides for fire control.

The British had at that time the first fully electronic computers, and decyphered most German codes with it.

Slightly better planes are a big advantage, I'd say. Especially in combination with radar.

Also, the Germans weren't advancing as fast as the Allies during the war - but that's partly because the US entered the war.

If I'd give each country a technology index from 0 (stone age) to 100 (leading nation), Germany would be at 94, GB at 96, Japan at 80, and the US at 100 in the beginning of WWII. Though that numbers are just guesses, and they simplify the fact that each nation was leading in some areas - the Germans with rockets, tanks, jets, and others, the British with radar, computers, decryption, and more, Japan with Torpedos and Battle Ships, the US with planes, production, and so on. As of January 1945, I'd give Germany, GB, and Japan 65, 80, and 70 points, respectively - Germany fell back more and more, especially if the quantity and usefulness of the high tech is taken in account (the "miracle weapons" of Germany couldn't compare with the ones of the US).

I would disagree with this. German jet technology was way in advance of that of the Allies. What they lacked was the ability to mass produce due to Allied bombings, but even there with the underground factories they were turning that around. They lacked three vital components more than this - 1. time, the time to complete what was already well-advanced; 2., trained manpower, and 3., raw materials of a good enough grade. The constant cracking of the Me 262 engines was due to having to use what was available - I think it was cast iron - instead of what was technically ideal.

You also need to factor in German guided and unguided missiles - e.g. the Fritz X which sank the Roma and the Wasserfall anti-aircraft missiles. There was nothing wrong with this technology, the struggle was to get it into production and deployed on a large-enough scale.

Grey Wolf

 

[jolo]

Google on the basis of this

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=antwerp+v1+v2&meta=

And follow the links that appeal to you

I think people today under-estimate the damage that could be causes by such a weapon as a V2. Not only with a 1000 kg warhead, but also the impact of the missile hitting the ground. It could destroy or damage up to 600 houses in a densely-populated area.

Eisenhower was freaked out when advised that if the Germans used V1s against the D Day embarkation ports he might not have anything left worthy of embarking.

The actual damage of the V1 was little - 6000 deaths with 2500 rockets in London. The V2 didn't carry more explosives, and was far more expensive - 10:1 cost:damage. The V1 came a few days after the landings - they could actually have caused havoc to the supplies and weapons for that operation when the stuff was still in GB. But I suppose after a few hits, the material would have been dispersed to other places. With 26 V2s on Antwerp per day, the damage was big - but the cost was probably even bigger.

 

[Grey Wolf]

The actual damage of the V1 was little - 6000 deaths with 2500 rockets in London. The V2 didn't carry more explosives, and was far more expensive - 10:1 cost:damage. The V1 came a few days after the landings - they could actually have caused havoc to the supplies and weapons for that operation when the stuff was still in GB. But I suppose after a few hits, the material would have been dispersed to other places. With 26 V2s on Antwerp per day, the damage was big - but the cost was probably even bigger.

Whats that supposed to mean ? Is there another way to hit Antwerp in 1944 ? I very much doubt they could do an air raid ! Maybe one, if they used Arado 234's but not a great deal of damage. Or do you think they should have left off from doing anything to Antwerp at all ?

Grey Wolf

 

[jolo]

I would disagree with this. German jet technology was way in advance of that of the Allies. What they lacked was the ability to mass produce due to Allied bombings, but even there with the underground factories they were turning that around. They lacked three vital components more than this - 1. time, the time to complete what was already well-advanced; 2., trained manpower, and 3., raw materials of a good enough grade. The constant cracking of the Me 262 engines was due to having to use what was available - I think it was cast iron - instead of what was technically ideal.

You also need to factor in German guided and unguided missiles - e.g. the Fritz X which sank the Roma and the Wasserfall anti-aircraft missiles. There was nothing wrong with this technology, the struggle was to get it into production and deployed on a large-enough scale.

I suppose we won't ever agree on this - imo, the Allies were better. There are quite a few areas where the Germans were leading - but those added not too much to the war. And there was also a lot of research going on in the States and GB - GB lasted 2 years against Germany without help, even able to stabilize frontiers in Afrika and Asia against 3(!) major powers - partly because they invented technologies that were actually useful - unlike the V2 and countless other "miracle weapons". GB might even have kept defending her territory on her own, though not without trade with the US and other places, as her air superiority was increasing during the war, and the naval superiority was kept. Btw - the English had radar-activated anti-aircraft shells, developed just for the V1 - also pretty good, isn't it?

The Fritz X had a major flaw: The bombers needed to be pretty exactly above the target during impact, at a slow speed, as the controls only worked effective from exactly above the bomb - from an angle, it was too difficult to target. Kamikaze can be done cheaper.

 

[jolo]

Whats that supposed to mean ? Is there another way to hit Antwerp in 1944 ? I very much doubt they could do an air raid ! Maybe one, if they used Arado 234's but not a great deal of damage. Or do you think they should have left off from doing anything to Antwerp at all ?

It definitely didn't have much use to kill masses of mostly civilians. Also, it's pointless to damage an enemies war economy with a weapon that costs your own war economy even more - especially if you are the country of the smaller size.

 

[MarkA]

There were Ukranian SS units but I do not think they made up the majority of the SS! There are always people who think if they fight for their conquerors and oppressors as a kind of sepoy army they will do better as a result.

The Germans did think some of the Ukranians (only those who fitted their racial profiling) were Ayrians. They were decended from Vikings after all, but within a few generations they had intermarried and adopted a way of life closer to their slavic compatriots. The Nazis tended to rationalise away anything that did not fit their bizarre theories.

Plans had already begun to transport tens of thousands of Ukranian women to Germany to be nothing other than brood mares. They were to be mothers to a new generation of Nazis after they had been raped and impregnated by the SS and other 'true Ayrians'.

Anyone still think the Nazis were rational people?

 

[Grey Wolf]

It definitely didn't have much use to kill masses of mostly civilians. Also, it's pointless to damage an enemies war economy with a weapon that costs your own war economy even more - especially if you are the country of the smaller size.

As I read it, the threat of missiles delayed the opening of Antwerp as a majo supply port for a couple of months. I admit that I am getting fed up with different sources that are saying different things to me and quoting different figures and statistics. And yes the ships sunk one could easily have been a fact added to the previous fact of missiles to hit the city without a necessary correlation, the author wishing to imply it for his agenda.

As for hitting London, or Norwich or what-have-you, this did SERIOUSLY worry the British government as there was a repeat exodus as per 1940-41, this time not organised by the government, and they feared a mass panic. It is also alleged (since I've decided all statistics now lie) that economic productivity in London was down by a significant percentage owing to this exodus.

Grey Wolf

 

[AMBOMB]

Don't be stupid and don't talk to me like that. If it can hit London, if it can hit Antwerp, if it can hit Liege, then it could have hit Southampton or Portsmouth, they are NOT small places. There were LOADS of V1 launch installations being built in Northern France. British intelligence was not asleep, they knew what they were and what they signified. Obviously they kept Eisenhower informed.

The V1s may have been unguided missiles, but they were not randomly-targeted. The Germans knew where the target cities were. They would focus in on a bearing. You couldn't guarantee what you hit, but you could be pretty sure that a fair enough percentage would hit the target.

And as for the V2 the range of its effectiveness was enhanced by hitting the ground. It says destroyed OR DAMAGED. If you can find some figures which say otherwise, then I will consider them.


Grey Wolf

Of course they could hit the port city, but the Germans couldn't target them to hit the actual docks! A 1 megaton H-bomb will damage structures maybe up to 20 miles away. Damage/destruction radius increases with the cube root of yield. So a 1 megaton H-bomb will have a damage/destruction radius 100 times greater than a 1,000 kg conventional bomb. Assuming a 20 mile damage/destruction radius for a 1 megaton H-bomb gives a damage/destruction radius of 352 yards and even that seems far for a 1,000 kg warhead.

 

[AMBOMB]

They had done it before... Look at Slovakia, Croatia...

But, Ukraine was part of the USSR, the communist USSR. And remember Hitler hated communists as well as slavs. So, to him, any Soviet slav was beneath contempt. He was willing to use them in the SS because he thought he needed them. But, to make Ukraine into an ally was not something he would've considered.

 

[Wendell]

Here I want to start a collection of strategies and tactics Allied and Axis powers could have used to get the war over with - either quicker (for the Allies) or the other way around (for the Axis powers). Short TL's, if a change at one point leads to significant differences later (like other alliances).

Add ideas or comments to ideas, if you like.

The battle of Nomonhan?

 

[jolo]

As I read it, the threat of missiles delayed the opening of Antwerp as a majo supply port for a couple of months. I admit that I am getting fed up with different sources that are saying different things to me and quoting different figures and statistics. And yes the ships sunk one could easily have been a fact added to the previous fact of missiles to hit the city without a necessary correlation, the author wishing to imply it for his agenda.

As for hitting London, or Norwich or what-have-you, this did SERIOUSLY worry the British government as there was a repeat exodus as per 1940-41, this time not organised by the government, and they feared a mass panic. It is also alleged (since I've decided all statistics now lie) that economic productivity in London was down by a significant percentage owing to this exodus.

I'd say the Allies were able to use other harbours as well - not as efficient, but not that big a problem. Even if Antwerp had been rendered completely useless, the supplies would have found their way, in about the same quantity and at nearly the same speed.

The exodus is more intersting - I never saw that factor being calculated into the equation. But I supposed most of the people who left did something productive somewhere else, and the exodus made London less interesting for any attack. Many people might even have fared better when London was emptied of a lot of people anyways - sure not useful to keep a store barely alive when other cities had too few stores for all their new inhabitants.