Very very true. As someone once dismissively said to me, "You can prove anything with facts. Some people would just prefer that you didn't."
This thread has finally sorted something out for me though- rule #32 is from Zombieland, right?
Challenge: United States Battleship Division 9 interned at Scapa Flow with HSF
- Thread starter Blair152
- Start date
Very very true. As someone once dismissively said to me, "You can prove anything with facts. Some people would just prefer that you didn't."
This thread has finally sorted something out for me though- rule #32 is from Zombieland, right?
Markus
Banned
He insulted the U.S. Marine Corps.
I only glace at what he writes but that interests me. It´s not in the Wake Island thread. Can you give me a link?
He insulted the US Marine Corps?
A trial in the near future, Grimm testifies under oath.
A trial in the near future, Grimm testifies under oath.
No, your honor, I have never had the slightest connection with the deceased...
points towards several separate bags labelled 'exhibit A'
...nor do I regret that lack. As for the graphic and, if I may be blunt, quite horrific injuries inflicted on the deceased, taking several pages simply to list, it is my firm opinion that they were the result of a tragic slip in the shower or possibly a drug overdose.
points towards several separate bags labelled 'exhibit A'
...nor do I regret that lack. As for the graphic and, if I may be blunt, quite horrific injuries inflicted on the deceased, taking several pages simply to list, it is my firm opinion that they were the result of a tragic slip in the shower or possibly a drug overdose.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Interned for Quarantine
The only logical way I can figure out is that most of the men of Division 9 come down with measles or chicken pox and the force is temporarily interned at Scapa Flow - which is a huge anchorage.
The only logical way I can figure out is that most of the men of Division 9 come down with measles or chicken pox and the force is temporarily interned at Scapa Flow - which is a huge anchorage.
Blair152
Banned
I've only been back here since February. Go to Taylor Anderson's blog at www.destroyermen.com . The idea wasn't mine. It was his. He suggested that in order to have a credible reason for the Navy to keep the ConnecticutHmm, maybe he saw the thread we had a few months ago about modernized predreadnoughts in WW2, and failed to notice the caveats that among other things, a POD involving a WNT-equivalent which kept a few around in some sort of second-class capital ship would be needed for the idea to make sense......
class, or build the South Dakota class of 1920, certain things would have to happen for there NOT to be a Treaty of Versailles, Washington Naval Treaty,
or London Naval Treaty. I thought the purpose of alternate history was to ask
"what if this happened?"
Blair152
Banned
What about the Spanish Flu, David? Think of it for a minute. That was the
BIGGEST, and deadliest, of all the recent flu pandemics, including the current
"swine flu" pandemic, which began a year ago at this time.
Bill Cameron
Banned
It's the Spanish Flu, not anthrax.
In the OTL, the USN had ships at foreign stations which lost enough of the crew to the Flu that they required additional crews be dispatched to steam the vessels home.
Take your own advice.
Why would a flu outbreak require Britain to seize a squadron of ships? Quarantine, surely. Seizing and keeping the vessels in question long enough for the US to be forced to replace them by either keeping the Connecticut-class or building the South Dakota-class? Please.
The ships aren't biohazards, the crews are, and, if some disease does make them a biohazard, Britain won't want them.
- The Destroyermen series- a none-too-well written work, where several ships that were already built or had been disposed of by OTL 1941 are ISOTed to a TL where humanity never evolved, its place being taken by several sentient races that evolved from other creatures and have a tech level several centuries behind? That belongs in ASB.
- As does the idea that the British would suddenly turn on their ally like that- anything other than a temporary quarantine due to a contagious disease would be a very risky and stupid thing to do- screwing around with other peoples' warships like that and/or trying to seize them is causus belli material, and right at the end of WW1, with Britain exhausted from the events of the previous 4 years, to play that sort of game would require a large number of people to become batshit-crazy morons, which would likely require an ASB to go around hitting people with the stupid stick.
- The Versailles Treaty only dealt with navies in terms of limiting Germany to a tiny coast-defense fleet of small and obsolete ships, and dividing up the ships of the former Kaiserlichmarine.
- Predreadnoughts were already obsolete- since about 1906, and worn-out by the end of WW1. Indeed, the war probably kept them around for a few years longer than they otherwise would have. By the time the WNT negotiations opened in 1921 OTL, the handful left were either waiting their turn to be auctiond off to the scrapyards, or were being used for training, depot hulks, being converted into auxiliaries, or used experimental work (i.e. remote control targets) The treaty provisions ordering them disposed of was a mere formality.
- To keep predreadnoughts around as combatants (if of rather limited utility barring a reconstruction of the scale of those done to battleships in the 1920s & 30s OTL) would require an alt-WNT carving out a specific niche for them, for the reasons listed in point 4.
- The London Naval Treaty came about in 1930, too late to have much of an effect one way or the other on the fate of predreads, as they'd be long gone by then barring something along the lines of point 5. The South Dakotas and the other ships axed under the WNT historically- either the WNT equivalent killed them, allowed some to be built, or in a no treaty world, would be built- how many and their folllow-ons depend on economics, budgets, politics, and what other people are doing.
- Research from sources other than a sci-fi writer's blog, even Wikipedia, as well as using the search function or going back several pages to see if the subject matter's been discussed can all help refine your 'what ifs' by fleshing out the limits of what's plausible as opposed to ASB-worthy and why that is, as well as the sort of questions that people ask and the answers given.
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Blair152
Banned
Vindictiveness, spite, revenge, Bill. Did you even read the scenario I had?It's the Spanish Flu, not anthrax.
In the OTL, the USN had ships at foreign stations which lost enough of the crew to the Flu that they required additional crews be dispatched to steam the vessels home.
Take your own advice.
Why would a flu outbreak require Britain to seize a squadron of ships? Quarantine, surely. Seizing and keeping the vessels in question long enough for the US to be forced to replace them by either keeping the Connecticut-class or building the South Dakota-class? Please.
The ships aren't biohazards, the crews are, and, if some disease does make them a biohazard, Britain won't want them.
First of all, no treaty of Versailles, World War I, like Korea, ends in an armistice. Second, the United States, seeing the futility of supporting the
British, pulls its troops out. The British, seeing this an American slight,
seizes the USS Delaware as she's heading home, and then orders the rest
of BatDiv 9 to stay in Scapa Flow. Meanwhile, USS Manley, the destroyer
that escorted BatDiv 9 across the Atlantic, to Scapa Flow, is seized in Ireland. The United States demands the return of its ships, and crews, the
British refuse, and a cold war begins. The United States, in 1918-19, is like China today. A country that's on the rise. Britain, still the world's pre-
emenant superpower, which it has been for over two hundred years, is in
serious decline. Albeit, a long, slow, decline. We all know that without the
Washington, and London, Naval Treaties, the sky would have been the limit when it came to battleship tonnage. Tell me I'm wrong about this.
In the short-term, and as a stopgap, the Navy would have to keep the Connecticut class, while it builds the South Dakota class of 1920, and the
Lexington class battlecruisers.
Blair152, the British did NOT win WWI in your scenario, even in the poor sense of OTL, which makes a decision to betray an ally and steal a small portion of the US's potential naval capacity, even less plausible.
Bill Cameron, should be interesting to see a disease which makes the steel of a ship a bio-hazard!
Bill Cameron, should be interesting to see a disease which makes the steel of a ship a bio-hazard!
David S Poepoe
Banned
Hadn't thought of that, but was thinking about about a portion of the force coming down with STDs after leave in Edinburgh so the Admiralty, with the consent of the US commander, interns the fleet at Scapa until things run their paths. Not at all realistic. I sort of thing the Spanish Flu may be a bit of a long shot, while measles and the pox are far more common.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Okay, you are wrong about this.
I mean you are so wrong that I don't know where to start.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Yes I did and it's even more of a steaming pile of gibberish than your usual efforts.
As I previously explained in an earlier thread about Hitler's chances of building an atomic bomb, you know a few words and phrases but are wholly ignorant of the topic at hand.
And so in response to this armistice, Britain, which has been fought to a standstill by the German Empire, immediately picks a fight with the nation which is the second or third largest naval power on Earth, the nation whose loans kept Britain in the war, the nation whose factories supplied Britain with munitions, the nation whose farms fed Britain, and the nation who until just recently was an ally.
That's beyond lava bathing insanity Blair. It may seem plausible or even rational to you, but you're a well known loony. From the point of view of a sane person, your suggestions aren't even laughable. They're pathetically misinformed instead.
Britain's seizure of US battleships and their crews in some fit of pique wouldn't trigger a cold war, it would trigger a shooting war right after Britain failed to win another shooting war.
Not to mention immediately after the UK and Commonwealth had been bled white and damned near bankrupt.
Here is a better question...
Do you think that Bard/Blair might BE Taylor Anderson?
His ongoing efforts to promote Destroyer men would make so much more sense that way.
Here is a better question...
Do you think that Bard/Blair might BE Taylor Anderson?
His ongoing efforts to promote Destroyer men would make so much more sense that way.
Hasn't he been namedropping other books? Maybe he represents the Dark Cabal of Desperate Publishers.
It now seems unlikely that he is Anderson, unless he is even more of an eleven11 than we think.
As far as I have been able to determine the link he posted doesn't exist. The link itself comes up with "not found" and a web search using both Yahoo and Google comes up dry.
Bill Cameron
Banned
CalBear,
I don't think so. As execrable as the Destroyermen series is, and it is so bad it makes mass produced romance novels look good, typing the series, maintaining some shred of coherence in the narrative, and then dealing with what passes for editing these days is surely beyond the abilities of Bard/Blair. Look at his posts here for example, leaving aside their content, he can't even format them properly.
For a while I had suspicions that the member who currently goes by "Last Marylander" might be Anderson. Along with changing his forum name a few times, he's started several threads on the series and even sunk so low as to defend it. Anderson is a Texan however and LM does seem to be from the state his latest nick refers to.
I doubt many authors actually lurk here anyway. They'd be much more at home on their own forums full of frothing fan boys.
Bill
Last Marylander is, AFAIK, a Freshman or Sophmore in high school. He has PM'd me quite a bit regarding things in Shared Worlds and has asked for sources to do what seemed to be 9th/10th grade sorts of reports.
Part of the name changes and threads seems to be the normal changes we all go through at that point in life. He actually seems to be a good kid.
I mainly asked about Anderson since Bard/Blair seems to actually know history but either out of confusion or design managed to mangle it out of all recognition.
Part of the name changes and threads seems to be the normal changes we all go through at that point in life. He actually seems to be a good kid.
I mainly asked about Anderson since Bard/Blair seems to actually know history but either out of confusion or design managed to mangle it out of all recognition.