Challenge: the pagans turn it around--weaker Islam AND Christianity
- Thread starter reddie
- Start date
A longer-lived Julian the Apostate might do it. He might be able to force Christianity out of the Roman ruling elite entirely (much like how the Confucian mandarins defeated "political Buddhism") or at least weaken its power.
The thread just asks for less Christianity and Islam. Zorastrianism =/= Christianity or Islam.
...Neither is Judaism! Medieval Kingdom of Israel, anyone?
non-Abrahamic religions still don't get along well with each other (or historically didn't at least), so even with them weaker or nonexistent there would still be conflict. plus as pagan religions got more structured / advanced they might get into squabbles about which gods were better, etc.
HueyLong
Banned
The world isn't anywhere near a war of Islam against Christianity.
And, as mentioned, pagans had just as many issues.
In 877 a Danish Army at Exeter was blockaded by Alfred the Great and bad weather and heavy seas kept the reserves from landing in Devon to relieve the pressure and win the day.
My POD is that the weather that day was calm (Somebody stepped on a butterfly in China I guess), the Viking fleet landed, Alfred's army was routed and Alfred himself was captured and killed. England is effectively conquered as they have no strong leaders to mount a resistance (and definitely no healthy ones, even Alfred was sickly) and the Vikings don't convert to Catholicism.
The Normans start settling into France in the 880's, but this time with a strong and friendly Viking neighbor to their north instead of the Christian Saxons. Having England as a more southern naval base, any expeditions across the Atlantic are less harassed by sea ice, making further colonization in America possible.
As time continues Christian pressure is subverted to some extent by the still pagan Normans, but is still powerful enough for Jesus and God to be incorporated into the Norse Parthenon. Viking power is spread throughout Northern Europe and Northeastern North America, and many pagan "sects" appear, usually with heavy local influence.
I have no idea how to make Islam less influential from this POD. Maybe as the Muslims move into Byzantium the Kievian Rus can stage raids and get more Viking raids on the Muslim lands for wealth, but I find it kind of unlikely since it'd be pretty out of their way (No Norman Sicily since they weren't Christian and didn't fight in the crusades)
My POD is that the weather that day was calm (Somebody stepped on a butterfly in China I guess), the Viking fleet landed, Alfred's army was routed and Alfred himself was captured and killed. England is effectively conquered as they have no strong leaders to mount a resistance (and definitely no healthy ones, even Alfred was sickly) and the Vikings don't convert to Catholicism.
The Normans start settling into France in the 880's, but this time with a strong and friendly Viking neighbor to their north instead of the Christian Saxons. Having England as a more southern naval base, any expeditions across the Atlantic are less harassed by sea ice, making further colonization in America possible.
As time continues Christian pressure is subverted to some extent by the still pagan Normans, but is still powerful enough for Jesus and God to be incorporated into the Norse Parthenon. Viking power is spread throughout Northern Europe and Northeastern North America, and many pagan "sects" appear, usually with heavy local influence.
I have no idea how to make Islam less influential from this POD. Maybe as the Muslims move into Byzantium the Kievian Rus can stage raids and get more Viking raids on the Muslim lands for wealth, but I find it kind of unlikely since it'd be pretty out of their way (No Norman Sicily since they weren't Christian and didn't fight in the crusades)
Almost certainly not.
Jesus and Christianity would not have existed if Judaism would not have existed, or even if the Babylonian Exile would not have taken place.
Likewise, the emergence of Islam was a result of circumstances that were partially created by the rise and presence of Christianity.
The Hijaz would certainly have been a different place in 600 AD if the Byzantine Empire would not have existed, and early Islam certainly was influenced by its interaction with contemporary forms of Christianity.
That argument only counts for those who actually believe that Mohammed was sent by Allah.
But that's a thing that cannot be proven, so it cannot count as an argument in a debate about history.
And from the perspective that Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, was nothing but a result of the combination of certain people and certain circumstances, it is quite safe to assume that Islam would be butterflied away if Christianity wouldn't have existed or would have been (very) different in the Middle East.