Challenge: split Chinese people
- Thread starter JHPier
- Start date
JHPier said:
If the similar thing happens as what happened in Rome (conquest by distinct tribes of "barbarians" that later assimilated the Romans or were assimilated by them, retaining some common characteristics, but starting to see themselves as distinctly different people) were to happen in China, IMO it would be possible. Maybe the Uyghurs and the Tibetans could carve out large chunks of China for themselves, and migrate there en masse, mixing with the locals. Better yet, have the rump "China" be mostly composed of the people that are different ethnically and/or culturally from the Chinese that conquered them only fairly recently (i.e. the Greek "Byzantine" Roman Empire was not ethnically Latin, even though it saw itself as a direct continuation of Rome).
Unfortunately I am not extremely familiar with the history of the region, so as far as the actual tribes/nations that would "aid" in such restructuring, I am drawing a blank. Thus, I am not sure about the plausibility.
It's already that way, actually. The so-called "dialects" are very different, as are the cultures of the various regions. Although the elites may share culture and language, on the ground it's very, very bogglingly diverse.
They were split numerous time, in southern Song dynasty, in Jin Dynasty, in end of Tang dynasty. There were considerable cultural difference between North and South China (and between provinces, and between river basins, etc, etc). They are still split, in many ways. The dialects are practically different langauges. The Southerner and Northerner are ethnically, linguistically different, and they also have different food groups, different cultures, different attitudes to sea-faring, and so on. They just decided to that they are all Chinese and stick together, that's all.
gaijin
Banned
characters
China has many different languages. One way to split the Chinese is to NOT let the first emperor standardize the Chinese characters. At one point in time (before the first empereor) Chinese Characters were seperating in different systems. The fun part of characters is that one character has the same meaning, but a completely different pronounciation in different languages. So people who can't speak with eachother can still understand what the other person is writing. If the chinese start using different systems they will not be able to communicate with each other anymore. The rest will follow from there.
China has many different languages. One way to split the Chinese is to NOT let the first emperor standardize the Chinese characters. At one point in time (before the first empereor) Chinese Characters were seperating in different systems. The fun part of characters is that one character has the same meaning, but a completely different pronounciation in different languages. So people who can't speak with eachother can still understand what the other person is writing. If the chinese start using different systems they will not be able to communicate with each other anymore. The rest will follow from there.
Split the Chinese people? Over a billion of them? Man, this is going to take a lot of axes...
I've often wondered if one of the Chinese dynasties had something simlilar to the laws of inheritance of the Carolignians (sp?) and each male son of the emperor got an equal share of the empire if it would keep the Empire fractured enough for seperate nation-states to form.
In terms of language, culture, genetics, north and south China are already very, very different places. Cantonese and Mandarin are as far apart, if not further, than the romance languages. People from Shanghai generally can't understand people from Beijing even.
Really though, you're arguing against geography, as nothing exists to impede an empire straddling both river valleys.
In terms of language, culture, genetics, north and south China are already very, very different places. Cantonese and Mandarin are as far apart, if not further, than the romance languages. People from Shanghai generally can't understand people from Beijing even.
Really though, you're arguing against geography, as nothing exists to impede an empire straddling both river valleys.
Hendryk
Banned
In OTL, China has been divided as often as not, but after a while the centralization of the empire would be restored. There was the Springs and Autumns and then the Warring Kingdoms period, the Three Kingdoms, the Dynasties of the North and South, etc... And, technically, contemporary China is divided between the People's Republic on the mainland, and the island of Taiwan. If what you're aiming at is permanent, rather than temporary, cultural and political division, then I think gaijin has the best suggestion: no First Emperor to unify the writing system. It's likely a lingua franca would develop anyway among the scholarly and clerical classes, but it would be more like Latin in medieval Europe, and wouldn't prevent the gradual emergence of local vernaculars with their idiosyncratic calligraphies. Interestingly, this might make Chinese civilization significantly more expansionist than it was in OTL, with the political and military emulation between rival kingdoms leading to exploration, conquest, and the more thorough application of all the technological breakthroughs that Chinese engineering came up with, but which in OTL were not used to their full potential. Let it be reminded that, by the 11th century, the Chinese had the printing press, the compass, and the multiple rocket launcher. In OTL they were content merely preserving stability and keeping the barbarians at bay. In a "divided China" TL, they would be much more like the early modern Europeans, with considerable consequences for the rest of the world.
Max Sinister
Banned
According to Jared Diamond, a looong time ago, only today's Northern China really was Chinese. In the Southern half many different people settled who were gradually assimilated. As others pointed out, people from different parts of China write the same language, but don't speak it the same way.
Max Sinister said:
It's not 'according to Jared Diamond', as if he's the only one who holds that view. It's a commonly accepted fact both in China and in the rest of the world. Southern China was conquered by the Qin Emperor, and it took several waves of migration due to pressure up North from civil unrest and barbarians to fully assimilate the place. Just look at the typical southern Chinese and northern Chinese, they look about as alike as a typical Russian and a typical Tatar.
Up to right before the Qin conquered the rest of China, even the Yangtze valley peoples, the Chu and Yue, who thought of themselves as Chinese, had a distinct culture and language from the more orthodox Chinese from the Yellow River drainage basin.