POD 2000. Make Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain the fastest growing European economies today.
Challenge: PIIGS Fly
- Thread starter tallwingedgoat
- Start date
Delay the financial crisis. Everyone will keep saying how brilliant and wonderful leveraging is and how credit-fuelled, deregulated, FDI-based growth and real-estate investment are the wave of the future, and those stupid manufaturing-based northern countries with their tighter banking regulation just don't get it. Real estate prices in all those countries will continue to go up, and people will think that those, and the derivatives based on them, represent real growth. Money will continue to pour into beach condos on the Algarve and mock-Georgian terraces in Dublin. Everyone is happy (except the people who can't afford them) and the crash comes a few years later.
Sorry for the off topic, but has someone in the anglosphere realized that the "expresion" PIIGS could be offensive? Well, probably the irish. Anyway, that double standard in the land of political correctness puzzles me.
For the question, there is no way, at least without a POD far in the past, to make that, except Carlton's proposal, of course. And even in that case I can't see all the five countries leading the growth in Europe. On the other hand, the supposed point of unity in the supposed group is at least arguable, despite the current financial propaganda. Sure, that don't excludes the faults of every of those countries, but depending in the indicators that we take into account maybe we should exclude or include some countries. For example, if the common point is the real state bubble, I don't know why Britain is not in the list.
For the question, there is no way, at least without a POD far in the past, to make that, except Carlton's proposal, of course. And even in that case I can't see all the five countries leading the growth in Europe. On the other hand, the supposed point of unity in the supposed group is at least arguable, despite the current financial propaganda. Sure, that don't excludes the faults of every of those countries, but depending in the indicators that we take into account maybe we should exclude or include some countries. For example, if the common point is the real state bubble, I don't know why Britain is not in the list.
If you look at the post-war period up until 1973 Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain did post impressive growth rates above the OCDE average.
Average Annual Per Capita Income Growth 1954-1960
Greece 6.2%
*Spain 6.2%
Italy 5.8%
OCDE Average for European members 1956-1961 4.4%
Portugal 4.3%
Ireland 1.4%
*Could only find Spain's 1957-1961 rates
Average Annual Economic Growth 1961-1973
Greece 7.1%
Portugal 6.9%
Spain 6.1%
Italy 4.5%
OCDE Average (European Members) 3.9%
Ireland 3.8%
Average Annual Economic Growth 1980-1985
Ireland 2.6%
Portugal 1.7%
EU-15 (member states 1995-2004) 1.6%
Spain 1.4%
Italy 0.8%
Greece 0.2%
Average Annual Economic Growth 1986-1995
Ireland 4.7%
Portugal 4.0%
Spain 3.0%
EU-15 (member states 1995-2004) 2.4%
Greece 1.3%
Average Annual Economic Growth 1996-2001
Ireland 9.1%
Spain 3.7%
Greece 3.6%
Portugal 3.5%
UE-15 2.5%
Average Annual Economic Growth 2002-2004
Ireland 5.1%
Greece 4.2%
Spain 2.5%
UE-15 1.4%
Portugal 0.1%
So just butterfly away the Yom Kippur War and the subsequent oil embargo and there you go.
In all seriousness, it's much more complex than that but I thought I'd throw that out there since 1973 was a turning point for the world economy and signaled the end of the postwar economic boom in Western Europe.
Average Annual Per Capita Income Growth 1954-1960
Greece 6.2%
*Spain 6.2%
Italy 5.8%
OCDE Average for European members 1956-1961 4.4%
Portugal 4.3%
Ireland 1.4%
*Could only find Spain's 1957-1961 rates
Average Annual Economic Growth 1961-1973
Greece 7.1%
Portugal 6.9%
Spain 6.1%
Italy 4.5%
OCDE Average (European Members) 3.9%
Ireland 3.8%
Average Annual Economic Growth 1980-1985
Ireland 2.6%
Portugal 1.7%
EU-15 (member states 1995-2004) 1.6%
Spain 1.4%
Italy 0.8%
Greece 0.2%
Average Annual Economic Growth 1986-1995
Ireland 4.7%
Portugal 4.0%
Spain 3.0%
EU-15 (member states 1995-2004) 2.4%
Greece 1.3%
Average Annual Economic Growth 1996-2001
Ireland 9.1%
Spain 3.7%
Greece 3.6%
Portugal 3.5%
UE-15 2.5%
Average Annual Economic Growth 2002-2004
Ireland 5.1%
Greece 4.2%
Spain 2.5%
UE-15 1.4%
Portugal 0.1%
So just butterfly away the Yom Kippur War and the subsequent oil embargo and there you go.
In all seriousness, it's much more complex than that but I thought I'd throw that out there since 1973 was a turning point for the world economy and signaled the end of the postwar economic boom in Western Europe.
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Cook
Banned
It’s caught on because the acronym matches the current state of the economies there.
Get over it.
Well, in this case you should find a way to include in acronym GB, Iceland etc... which were burned really bad by this crisis
.You know? no italian bank went bankrupt for this little unpleasentness.
Dr. Strangelove
Banned
No, it's caught on because it is offensive. By saying PIGS fly, it suggests that these countries' natural state is to be permanently underdeveloped with regards to Great Britain, which is where it originated; because these countries prospering would be as natural as pigs flying. Damn dagoes, stop being prosperous! Who's going to serve me sangria now?
I totally agree with Dr. Strangelove. The acronym used in a variation of an idiom is doubly insulting on purpose: First in making an association between the inhabitants of the countries in question with pigs, and then in implying that economic growth in these countries is not the natural order of things. Racist and unfunny.
boredatwork
Banned
Well, given the issues with UK economy, and sovereign debt, it is inadvertently kind of funny. The high and mighty are well along the way to being brought low.
I imagine the cognitive dissonance is right up there with the last decade, when Ireland was posting per capita GDP in excess of the UK's figures.
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Did anybody really hold up the PIGS (ie the above mentioned exept Ireland) as an example?
Well, in this case you should find a way to include in acronym GB, Iceland etc... which were burned really bad by this crisis
You know? no italian bank went bankrupt for this little unpleasentness.
Find me a(nother) country in Europe which was also badly burned by the crisis whose name starts with G (and not "Great Britain") and I can give you:
BIG PIIGS! - Britain, Iceland, ?, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain!
Not Italy or Greece, AFAIR, except for individual aspects, but I heard Spain and Portugal with their stupendous growth rate and employment numbers as examples for how to solve East Germany more than once. See, all it takes is deregulate private credit a *teensy* bit more, allow more freedom to developers, and you'd have, like, double the growth rate and half the unemployment. Guaranteed. Trust me, I'm in real estate.
It got pretty annoying.
How can a term, which originated in Great Britain, to describe such varied countries as Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain, be racist? I mean, it's basically a term by white people describing other white people, right? Especially in Ireland's case.
If you want to be offended, be offended by the implied dig at poor people. I'm probably over-reacting, and I don't know where you're from, but in the US we have shameless race baiters such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who scream racism anytime they don't get their way, so hearing that term being thrown around kinda bugs me.
Valdemar II
Banned
How can a term, which originated in Great Britain, to describe such varied countries as Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain, be racist? I mean, it's basically a term by white people describing other white people, right? Especially in Ireland's case.
If you want to be offended, be offended by the implied dig at poor people. I'm probably over-reacting, and I don't know where you're from, but in the US we have shameless race baiters such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who scream racism anytime they don't get their way, so hearing that term being thrown around kinda bugs me.
Maybe it's because the English tend to embrace quite insulting language toward foreigners, especially the Spanish, that our Spanish speaking members take perceived insult from UK very serious.
That's not racism, that's just well-established Brit arrogance
In any case, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm out.
In any case, I don't have a dog in this fight, so I'm out.
Dr. Strangelove
Banned
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=3124624#post3124624
Maybe it is not technically racism since in theory everyone involved is white; but it is the best term I can find for the attitude of contemptuous superiority and better-than-thou-ness some britons often hold towards those who live in mediterranean countries, of which this is an example.
How can a term, which originated in Great Britain, to describe such varied countries as Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain, be racist? I mean, it's basically a term by white people describing other white people, right? Especially in Ireland's case.
Maybe it is not technically racism since in theory everyone involved is white; but it is the best term I can find for the attitude of contemptuous superiority and better-than-thou-ness some britons often hold towards those who live in mediterranean countries, of which this is an example.
Because it's one of those "funny jokes" that are not funny at all. It's like calling a black man chocolate. Why should he get offended? Chocolate is good, isn'it? Try do this at home and then tell me.
The fact is there's an old kind of racism in Great Britain towards catholics and mediterrean people (note that Ireland was included in the acronym only recently), which are seen as lazy and untrustworthy. But this doesn't offend me, I don't get offended so easily, every nation has its stupid stereotypes on its neighbours (in Italy, for example, englishmen are considered drunkards and dirty). What it annoys me is the presumption of superiority, which, given the recent facts, has no base. Hence the little, friendly jab.
I'm probably over-reacting, and I don't know where you're from, but in the US we have shameless race baiters such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who scream racism anytime they don't get their way, so hearing that term being thrown around kinda bugs me.
This is a rather different thing. It's like being called antisemite because you dared to criticize Israel goverment and I find it quite bothersome, too. But we are on a different ground here, aren't we?