the_lyniezian
Banned
What might be required to prevent either World War II, or both World Wars, from happening?
What might be the outcome in either case?
What might be the outcome in either case?
Challenge: No World War(s)
- Thread starter the_lyniezian
- Start date
Valdemar II
Banned
Okay, the revolution in Russia in 1905 turn into a full scale civil war, and Russia lose Poland, Finland, Balticum and maybe Ukraine. Germany has lost the need for a war, France has lost it most important ally, if Serbia try anything funny AH crush them, without a great power to back Serbia up.
Germany end up dominating the European contignent peacefully, while colonism continue atleast until after 2000.
Germany end up dominating the European contignent peacefully, while colonism continue atleast until after 2000.
I like that one. But it just puts off the problems - I can see France picking up Britain as a formal Ally instead, what with all the naval buildup and all, and if they can get Italy in, they might even think they have a chance. After which it's all downhill again.
Valdemar II
Banned
Not really one of the thing we should remember with revanchism, that it only truly last as long as people (and especially the politicians) remember personally that they have lost the land, if WWI hadn't before 1920, it quite likely that French revanchism will have begun to died out as a major French political force (with younger politician in charge), and France will begin a more cooparating policy toward Germany, which make sence because their true opponent in colonial policy was Britain.
PaleHorseRiding
Banned
Would this happen or would the kids have been fed get back alsace lorrain sp fr so long that they would be even more determined then their parents and would look down upon their parent for failing.
Valdemar II
Banned
Most likely they wouldn't see what the big deal were with losing a German speaking territorium.
Avoif the treaty of Frankfuhrt. After it a war involving France and Germany on opposite sides is pretty much unavoidable. And as France alone cannot match Germany, it will look for allies, which will lead to Germany looking for allies, which will mean that any spark can trigger a war which will engilf the whole of Europe, which at that time, means engulfing the world.
So you need to get rid of Revanchism ( which would not die by 1920, BTW, thanks to the 600,000 Alstation which left the Reich after 1871 and their descendents ). In order to do that, you need to avoid Frankfuhrt and wholesale annexion of Alsace and Moselle ( and subsequent treatment of these as colonies ). If the french had just lost money and colonies in Frankfuhrt, as well as minor border adjustments, WWI would have been avoided. As it was, is was unavoidable. Much more so than WWII was after Versailles.
So, PoD, The french do better in the second part fo the Franco-Prussian war; This means that they have a better hand in the peace treaty negociation and that Bismark has the upper hand vs the military junkers in Prussian politics. Then you get the *Frankfuhrt treaty above ( with France renoncing any claim on the Rhine and a few historic castle - Fleckenstein, Wasigenstein ... - as a sop to German romantics
So you need to get rid of Revanchism ( which would not die by 1920, BTW, thanks to the 600,000 Alstation which left the Reich after 1871 and their descendents ). In order to do that, you need to avoid Frankfuhrt and wholesale annexion of Alsace and Moselle ( and subsequent treatment of these as colonies ). If the french had just lost money and colonies in Frankfuhrt, as well as minor border adjustments, WWI would have been avoided. As it was, is was unavoidable. Much more so than WWII was after Versailles.
So, PoD, The french do better in the second part fo the Franco-Prussian war; This means that they have a better hand in the peace treaty negociation and that Bismark has the upper hand vs the military junkers in Prussian politics. Then you get the *Frankfuhrt treaty above ( with France renoncing any claim on the Rhine and a few historic castle - Fleckenstein, Wasigenstein ... - as a sop to German romantics
As long as 600,000 alsatians ( out of a population of 1,600,000 ) leave Alsace after 1871, that's not going to happen. They didn't forget and didn't want to. They introduce a meme in french collective mind.
The words 'Alsatian Diaspora' has a meaning you know. The black covered statues in the french parliament were just a reminder. Strasbourg was seen as a promised land.
And, just BTW, Alsatian is not Hoch-deutch. In fact, the reason Alsatian is still a living language has to do with Germans forbidding French when they were in control and Alsatians not wanting to speak German.
Valdemar II
Banned
A alternative attempt.
No WWI
1862: The ACW ends with a independent CSA (don’t know how don’t care)
Result: the Mexican Empire survives as a French supported state.
1864: Denmark lose to the German Confederation (like OTL)
1866: Prussia wins the Prussian-German war (like OTL)
Result: the North German Confederation is created with Prussia as leader.
1871: Because of the lack of the French humiliation in Mexico, the French-Prussian war doesn’t happen.
Result: Germany unification doesn’t happen, the North German Confederation (NGC/German: NDB) continue life as a de facto state, with bigger industry than France and the same population but greater population growth.
1872: France and NGC find a compromise and participate Belgium; Netherlands receive Flanders, Prussia receives Liege, Luxembourg receives Belgian Luxembourg and become a member of NGC, while France gets the rest.
Result a closer relationship between Paris and Berlin, and both get a worse relationship with London.
1875: France, Austria-Hungary and Italy participate Switzerland in three at the linguistic borders (AH also receive the Romansch speaking areas).
Result: a better relationship between Paris and Vienna, and a lot of South German paranoia.
1877: Bavaria, Wütternberg and Baden join in the South German Confederation (SGC/German: SDB).
Result: a strong medium sized buffer state between NGC, France and AH.
1877-78 Russo-Turkish War (the same as OTL)
1884: The Philadelphia Congress, Africa is carved up.
Result: Africa is carved up after OTL borders, except USA receive Congo (Zaire) and NGC gets Morocco.
1898-1901 the Boers wars result in worsende relationship from Netherland, France, USA and NGC toward UK.
1905: Russia wins the Japanese-Russian war
Result: Japan keep Korea and Taiwan but lose their areas of influence in Manchuria. Growing European paranoia toward Russia.
1910-1915 The Balkan Wars result in the Ottoman Empire losing all their European possession except Easten Thrace, Bulgaria end up the dominating power of the Balkans with entire Macedonia. The Ottomans begin a close cooparation with NGC, AH and France
1920 Economical crisis, NGC, SGC, AH, Netherlands, France, the Ottoman Empire and a few minor states join together in a economical free trade zone and a military alliance against Britain and Russia (a few of the minor states are still neutrals).
Result: it will in time evolve into a cross between EFTA and NATO.
The European contignent is now stable and no world wars will begin there.
No WWI
1862: The ACW ends with a independent CSA (don’t know how don’t care)
Result: the Mexican Empire survives as a French supported state.
1864: Denmark lose to the German Confederation (like OTL)
1866: Prussia wins the Prussian-German war (like OTL)
Result: the North German Confederation is created with Prussia as leader.
1871: Because of the lack of the French humiliation in Mexico, the French-Prussian war doesn’t happen.
Result: Germany unification doesn’t happen, the North German Confederation (NGC/German: NDB) continue life as a de facto state, with bigger industry than France and the same population but greater population growth.
1872: France and NGC find a compromise and participate Belgium; Netherlands receive Flanders, Prussia receives Liege, Luxembourg receives Belgian Luxembourg and become a member of NGC, while France gets the rest.
Result a closer relationship between Paris and Berlin, and both get a worse relationship with London.
1875: France, Austria-Hungary and Italy participate Switzerland in three at the linguistic borders (AH also receive the Romansch speaking areas).
Result: a better relationship between Paris and Vienna, and a lot of South German paranoia.
1877: Bavaria, Wütternberg and Baden join in the South German Confederation (SGC/German: SDB).
Result: a strong medium sized buffer state between NGC, France and AH.
1877-78 Russo-Turkish War (the same as OTL)
1884: The Philadelphia Congress, Africa is carved up.
Result: Africa is carved up after OTL borders, except USA receive Congo (Zaire) and NGC gets Morocco.
1898-1901 the Boers wars result in worsende relationship from Netherland, France, USA and NGC toward UK.
1905: Russia wins the Japanese-Russian war
Result: Japan keep Korea and Taiwan but lose their areas of influence in Manchuria. Growing European paranoia toward Russia.
1910-1915 The Balkan Wars result in the Ottoman Empire losing all their European possession except Easten Thrace, Bulgaria end up the dominating power of the Balkans with entire Macedonia. The Ottomans begin a close cooparation with NGC, AH and France
1920 Economical crisis, NGC, SGC, AH, Netherlands, France, the Ottoman Empire and a few minor states join together in a economical free trade zone and a military alliance against Britain and Russia (a few of the minor states are still neutrals).
Result: it will in time evolve into a cross between EFTA and NATO.
The European contignent is now stable and no world wars will begin there.
Does the CSA get anything at Philadelphia, or are they being ignored by the major powers of the world?
Also - I imagine Russia is guaranteeing the continued independence of any Balkan nation Austria might think about taking over. This is a stalemate at the moment, but it seems like it might get tested at some point.
Also - I imagine Russia is guaranteeing the continued independence of any Balkan nation Austria might think about taking over. This is a stalemate at the moment, but it seems like it might get tested at some point.
Valdemar II
Banned
Nothing CSA is more less a English Brazilia, and have enough trouble keeping the country together.
Yes it's the only reason that Bosnia hasn't been official incorporated in AH, plus Austria doesn't wish getting a lot of new minorities.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Interesting ATL, but 'Don't know how don't care' since the POD is suppose to be Post-1900.
Valdemar II
Banned
While this post is in the Post-1900 board, it doesn't have to be Post-1900, I choose the whole "Don't know how don't care", because I wanted to avoid a ACW discussion, and thank you for the kind words.