Challenge: Make a TL for this map

[TheseusDeuteros]

Hi,

So, I made the map below and figured it would be a nice idea to create the challenge for you guys to think of a backstory for the scenario. The earliest POD must be post-1760 (unless that really is impossible; however, the later the better). You are allowed to make small changes to the map, but the main concept must remain, especially the 'division' of Germany. If anything's unclear, just ask all questions you might have. For the rest of the world: fantasise yourself! Though you should try to keep to the following ideas as much as possible:

- A strong Korea and Japan (maybe an independent Manchuria too, for bonus points)
- The Ottomans posses Hejaz, part of Mesopotamia, and Azerbaijan and the Caucasus. Maybe even small areas at the other side of the Caspian Sea...
- Russia is expansionist and focused on Central Asia, because they were less succesful in Europe (so they have Kazakhstan, Emirates of Bukhara and Samarqand etc., and East Turkestan, as well as northern Persia perhaps).
- Naples unified Italy, to some extend. (This is not a note for 'the rest of the world', though, in fact.)
- The Spanish were more succesful in colonisation in Africa. So were the Dutch. The British colonise southern China and Indochina instead of India (which remains uncolonised except for Ceylon/Sri Lanka; Dutch?).
- You can decide yourselves how the Scramble of Africa happens. Prussia should have a few colonies though.
- France is more succesful in Canada. Actually, this was my rough idea for North America: (caution, ugly map)


Here's the map:

 

[Grey Wolf]

I'd go with a different Napoleonic outcome.

Lots of pretty butterflies

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Lalli]

I'd go with a different Napoleonic outcome.

Lots of pretty butterflies

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Leastly there should be different Napoleonic war indeed, when Sweden can keep Finland. Or this might even need pre-Napoleonic Wars POD. But I don't see any plausible way how Germans can get Belgium. It could be part of France or divided between France and Netherlands.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Leastly there should be different Napoleonic war indeed, when Sweden can keep Finland. Or this might even need pre-Napoleonic Wars POD. But I don't see any plausible way how Germans can get Belgium. It could be part of France or divided between France and Netherlands.

Well its more of a Rhine/Westphalia type of Germany so maybe France gets defeated in a different way and Jerome keeps his throne?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

I'd go with a different Napoleonic outcome.

Lots of pretty butterflies

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Could be a possibility.

Leastly there should be different Napoleonic war indeed, when Sweden can keep Finland. Or this might even need pre-Napoleonic Wars POD. But I don't see any plausible way how Germans can get Belgium. It could be part of France or divided between France and Netherlands.

Well, Swedish Finland isn't really a very important part of the map, though. German Belgium is. A pre-Napoleonic POD is allowed, of course

Well its more of a Rhine/Westphalia type of Germany so maybe France gets defeated in a different way and Jerome keeps his throne?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Good idea. A pre-Napoleonic POD is not possible anymore then, however.

 

[altwere]

Columbus dies fighting for Castile and Aragorn. The Spanish do better in the Reconquesta sweeping into northwestern Africa. The Spanish royal house doesn't merge with the Haspbergs keeping the HRE mostly German. North America is discovered by the French who send out a expedition following rumors of new lands spoken about by basque and Breton fishermen.
Not having the riches of Mexico and Peru and being occupied in north Africa the Spanish do not mettle much in the Germanies. The thirty years war fizzles out and the HRE muddle on for another couple of centuries.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

...The earliest POD must be post-1760 (unless that really is impossible; however, the later the better). ...

Columbus dies fighting for Castile and Aragorn. The Spanish do better in the Reconquesta sweeping into northwestern Africa. The Spanish royal house doesn't merge with the Haspbergs keeping the HRE mostly German. North America is discovered by the French who send out a expedition following rumors of new lands spoken about by basque and Breton fishermen.
Not having the riches of Mexico and Peru and being occupied in north Africa the Spanish do not mettle much in the Germanies. The thirty years war fizzles out and the HRE muddle on for another couple of centuries.

Good ideas, but the PODs are rather early. Do you think there's any way to achieve the same with eighteenth century PODs?

 

[Sian]

actually ... i'm guessing 30 years war with limited butterflies ... can't quite see a French loss in Napoleonic war, that gives Denmark (a French ally ... or rather enemy of Britain) Scania back from Sweden, and Danish Pommerania and Gotland (gained from Sweden probably) ...

a French/Swedish allience (with Denmark abandoning League of armed neutrality joining Britain, dodging the bombing of Copenhagen) and following loss, wouldn't let Sweden keep Finland either

And even with those things in mind, i'm not sure Denmark with those borders wouldn't try and bribe Britain into selling them Lübeck, or sit around waiting on Britain getting into a tough war in which Denmark can either snatch it or offer an alliance for the area

 

[Grey Wolf]

actually ... i'm guessing 30 years war with limited butterflies ... can't quite see a French loss in Napoleonic war, that gives Denmark (a French ally ... or rather enemy of Britain) Scania back from Sweden, and Danish Pommerania and Gotland (gained from Sweden probably) ...

a French/Swedish allience (with Denmark abandoning League of armed neutrality joining Britain, dodging the bombing of Copenhagen) and following loss, wouldn't let Sweden keep Finland either

And even with those things in mind, i'm not sure Denmark with those borders wouldn't try and bribe Britain into selling them Lübeck, or sit around waiting on Britain getting into a tough war in which Denmark can either snatch it or offer an alliance for the area

Oh I wasn't saying it was ONLY that. I COULD write a TL if I had time but I don't

So nobody will believe me

Beset Rearguards
Grey Wolf

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

actually ... i'm guessing 30 years war with limited butterflies ... can't quite see a French loss in Napoleonic war, that gives Denmark (a French ally ... or rather enemy of Britain) Scania back from Sweden, and Danish Pommerania and Gotland (gained from Sweden probably) ...

a French/Swedish allience (with Denmark abandoning League of armed neutrality joining Britain, dodging the bombing of Copenhagen) and following loss, wouldn't let Sweden keep Finland either

And even with those things in mind, i'm not sure Denmark with those borders wouldn't try and bribe Britain into selling them Lübeck, or sit around waiting on Britain getting into a tough war in which Denmark can either snatch it or offer an alliance for the area

True, true. You can change some things in Scandinavia, though; Scandinavia is not very important for my 'scenario'.

 

[mlp]

OP asked for stronger korea and japan. I could pull an industrialisation for Korea with POD in 1788. not sure about Japan though.
Also, I really wish I could help with the European history part but just lack in expert knowledge. I sure as hell would read the TL though.
other than that, looks like there was some massive gangrape on Poland...Austrian Krakow....

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

Is it just me, or does Prussia have Courland?

 

[Dorozhand]

Emperor Paul I of Russia isn't assassinated in 1801 and lives to see a Napoleonic invasion. Instead of adopting a scorched earth policy like Alexander I did, he decides to confront Napoleon in battle outside Smolensk. Napoleon crushes his army and captures the Emperor. This demoralizes the Russian people and encourages Sweden to join the war on France's side. A Franco-Swedish army takes St. Petersburg and Russia sues for peace. In the treaty, Russia recognizes a restored Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, cedes to Sweden all of Ingria including St. Petersburg, and the emperor is demoted, agreeing to give up all claims to being the Third Rome.

Napoleon manages to subdue both Spain and Portugal after taking the Grand Armee to war there and dedicating all of France's efforts to defeating the British. Napoleon gives Rome and Naples to a unified Kingdom of Italy.

After this, peace is made with the UK.

However, after Napoleon dies, his successor, Napoleon II, proves to be an ineffective military leader and the country collapses into civil war. Austria rises up again and defeats the general Napoleon II sends to subdue it. The Confederation of Rhine joins with Prussia, which declares the foundation of the United Kingdom of Germany and goes to war against France. After this, Britain pulls of a 19th century D-Day, landing a huge army on the coast of northern France and marching inland to take Paris once and for all. The allied forces succeed, and Napoleonic France surrenders.

Russia revokes the treaty imposed upon it by Napoleon, and Czar Constantine I makes war on Poland. However, Poland, whose nationalism has been spurred to life by its new independence, fights bitterly and actually manages to defeat Russia. However, Sweden is defeated and is forced to cede Ingria, though Estonia holds out against Russian attack.

Italy, having seen a taste of what unification could bring, begins a post-war struggle to create an Italian republic, fighting against a resurgent Savoy.

Iberia remains unified under the House of Bonaparte, which managed to consolidate Spanish support after the war ended and economic conditions improved.


There's a beginning for a scenario. I'm not sure what to do with the rest of the XIX century though.

 

[Victor Marik]

Just a couple fun ideas...

Napoleon somehow pulls off the Russia campaign slightly better (ie, no Grande Armee collapse), but has to make compromise with the Poles. Instead of Marshal, Pilsudski could have been made King of Poland in exchange for keeping Russia from routing the Empire.

Winters being what they are, Napoleon catches some illness and dies. Before he dies, he tries to set up some acceptable regency for his son Napoleon II. Instead, the Empire splits between Joseph (Iberia), Louis (Holland), and Jerome (German League, nee Westphalia). In a political surprise, Lucien Bonaparte succeeds as Regent over the child Napoleon. Murat goes wild in Italy, Bernadotte becomes King of Sweden and takes the field against Russia, while the other Marshals grudgingly choose which Bonaparte scion to ally with. Think a nineteenth century equivalent of the Diadochi.

As for the United Kingdom, of course Victoria does not succeed to the throne. But who else of the House of Hanover would rule?

As for America, maybe the British have a good time with the War of 1812 and subsequently repair ties with a secessionist New England? Manifest Destiny makes due anyway, perhaps even taking advantage of European chaos to more easily expand west.

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

Post 7 years war is a must (I focus on Europe) - OTL Russia dropped out of the Alliance against Prussia in 1761 - Lets start wit Poland joining the Anti Prussian league when Russia drops out - Prussia attacks Poland instead of Austria in 1762 and when peace is made its much as OTL (Status quo ante) but Poland is somewhat reduced - this defet forces a reform in Poland and prevents the Polish division.

Afterwards!

French revolution fails when the French king escapes Flight THROUGH Varenne and functions as a focal point for all non Republican forces. Austria, Prussia and Britain intervene in force too. - no Napoleonic wars.

Afterwards. many french thinkers escape to (south) germany and a decade or so the German South becomes increasingly "enlighted" and forms a loose confederation. When Austria wants to stomp this "movement" it gets defeated by the South German states, loses Austrian Netherlands in the Process.

The same time European powers support Greek revolution.

Afterwards - Victoria does not become queen and a male heir keeps Britain and Hannover united.

Afterwards!

in a 1848 like revolution the Hungarians manage to get independent (Russia is not helping the Austrian TTL)

Afterwards...

Hungary and Russia compete at the Balkans vs an ailing OE - Hungary ultimately suceeds to "liberate" Serbia and Bosnia which become the core of a South Slav Kingdom. Fighting goes on for several decades: Russian backed Danuvian principalities manage to defeat Hungary (Transilvania changes hands, but meanwhile Serbia manages to incite a Bulgarian revolt in the "Balkan land grab" Greece, Serbia and Romania manage to divide the Balkans - Russia gets the spoils by "liberating" Constantinopolis (a sore point for the Greek)

Meanwhile in Italy

Venice, Naples (Two Sicilies) and Savoy compete for domination. When Venice seems to succeed - Austria who does not favor an united Italy - intervenes defeats the Venetians and allows two "italian" kingdoms to develop while grabbing up most of Venices North italian posessions (allowing it to survive as Adriatic Trade Republic) - Habsburg descendants rule string of petty principalities between the Italian Kingdoms to prevent them uniting along a common border.

This is the first time in more than 100 years Austria is winning a war

France still a monarchy struggles the first decades of the 19th century to repair the damage of the revolution. inept kings lead to a more inward focussed conservative decadent society - preventing France becoming powerful again. Later France recovers.

Changes to the map - Portugal should be independent.

Sweden is backed by Poland and to a less degree by Prussia against Russia -
Denmark manages to dominate the Baltic by "divide and impera".

The Dutch Republic prospers peacefully...

South America is still dominated by increasingly autonomus Spanish Viceroyalties) - Preventing the US defeating "Mexico", by helping the sister-country in a 1848-esque war. Russia never sells Alaskya. "Canada" and "Mexico" have a common border, - A civil war divides North and South states somewhat in the 60s-70s.

Scramble for Africa: Spain from the North , The dutch never lose Cape town, so start the scramble from a good position.

Egypt manages to become independent from the OE, but loses all east of Sinai, but expands into Sudan and Eastern Africa (modernizes and is counted a s civilized)

 

[Ellie]

I want to make a world map for this

Also, I lack expert knowledge of the pre-American Civil War time period, so my best idea for now is an earlier "Napoleon-esque" figure. Instead of dominating the continent he decides to attack Britain instead.

 

[Ellie]

But I think a surviving, non Habsburg Venice requires a pre-Napoleon PoD.

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Is it just me, or does Prussia have Courland?

Correct.
..

 

[TheseusDeuteros]

Thanks for all of your replies by the way. I'll read through them carefully as soon as I can. Hopefuly I can combine them to write down the outline of one coherent timeline.

 

[altwere]

Good luck with that and have fun.