Challenge: HMS Hood, Flagship of the Royal Navy in the Falklands War

You'd have to ensure Britain doesn't get into its OTL economic mess in the 60s and 70s for the Royal Navy to have a chance of being able to afford to maintain major capital ships. Maybe if Churchill and the Tories win the 1945 general election and institute an insurance-based healthcare system and don't nationalise, but you've still got the underlying problems of British industry to deal with.
 

Bearcat

Banned
Yes: she'd have to be retrofitted with SAM & AAA. I wonder if an Exocet would have the same effect as a 15 inch shell, or perhaps a 1000 lb iron bomb?

I'd expect an Exocet to be more comparable to a kamikaze, myself. So pretty limited damage to an armored ship, if she hits the side. A superstructure hit and fire will be somewhat worse, but still she'll likely come through much better than a destroyer.
 
Good ideas from Cockroach and Pasha

Pasha, your remarks about HMS Vanguard are excellent.

HMS Hood was laid down in the end of the First World War, so the only older commissioned ship in the 1950s would have been the Greek Navy's George Averoff. Vanguard was laid down at the end of the Second World War so would still have been in her early 40s in 1982.

As a bombardment unit, Vanguard might have been excellent, but she would have needed Phalanx, SLCM and Seawolf missiles to have matched an Iowa in the 1980s. Long-range artillery with sabot rounds could have given her a lethal reach. However, a small carrier with Harriers would have been far more potent for the money.

The point is 'bang for buck', so Hood and Vanguard aren't worth it.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Yes: she'd have to be retrofitted with SAM & AAA. I wonder if an Exocet would have the same effect as a 15 inch shell, or perhaps a 1000 lb iron bomb?

Actually an Exocet is too small and has far too little mass to equal at 15" shell.

The German WW II 15"/380mm AP shell (Bismarck) weighed 1,764 pounds and traveled at 2,690 FPS (roughly 1,834 MPH) and was equipped with an armor piercing nosecap designed to defeat 9"+ of Krupps armor. The Exocet weighs in at 1,500 pounds (360 pound warhead) and flys at about 600 MPH. The only SSMs that comes close to a heavy shell are the SS-N-19 & SS-N-22 which are MACH 3+ and carry 1,500 pound warheads. Even those are questionable unless they get a redesign of the shaped charge warhead specifically meant to defeat heavy armor (not that this would be that difficult).

The only real direct danger from other SSM is to sensors and personnel in exposed posts. There is a secondary danger from unburned solid propellent, which is hotter than hell and can be a bitch to cool down, but even that is managable on a very large warship, at least to a point.
 

Markus

Banned
Yes: she'd have to be retrofitted with SAM & AAA. I wonder if an Exocet would have the same effect as a 15 inch shell, or perhaps a 1000 lb iron bomb?

US naval expert/author Norman Friedmann said there were almost no armour piercing missiles in any nation´s arsenal by the early 80´s beceause there were next to no armoured ships in commission. Even the Soviets would have had a hard time sinking an Iowa-BB.
 
Actually it occurs to me that it is more likely that a UK built battle ship or battle cruiser would have been sold to Argentina and used by them.
 
Going JUST by the Title of this Thread, The have Her Magesties Ship Hood at the Falklands Is Easy.















Rename one of the post war Carriers
 
A youthful Princess Elizabeth has a massive school girl crush on a handsome officer , who dies heroically when assigned to HMS Hood, whilst saving the ship from destruction during the battle with the Bismarck (by slamming the fire proof doors or something). The Hood survives, handsome officer does not. Princess is devastated as only a love sick virgin can be.

A devastated princess a few years later becomes Queen. Shortly after she hears that Hood is scheduled to be scrapped and demands that the ship be preserved. She suggests that it be refitted as a royal yacht instead of the Britannia (no idea when the Britannia was commissioned though, except early 50s).

Hell hath nothing as stubborn as a young Queen in the grips of a romantic tragedy gig (look at Queen V and the bedchamber crisis !), and she gets her own way, by wheedling , tears and temper tantrums.

The Navy are stuck with the old clunker. Come the Falkands and they figure they may as well use it for something (the guns still work); and if it gets sunk, so much the better, and older and less passionate Queen will accept that as the final denouement of the tragedy .
 
A youthful Princess Elizabeth has a massive school girl crush on a handsome officer , who dies heroically when assigned to HMS Hood, whilst saving the ship from destruction during the battle with the Bismarck (by slamming the fire proof doors or something). The Hood survives, handsome officer does not. Princess is devastated as only a love sick virgin can be.

A devastated princess a few years later becomes Queen. Shortly after she hears that Hood is scheduled to be scrapped and demands that the ship be preserved. She suggests that it be refitted as a royal yacht instead of the Britannia (no idea when the Britannia was commissioned though, except early 50s).

Hell hath nothing as stubborn as a young Queen in the grips of a romantic tragedy gig (look at Queen V and the bedchamber crisis !), and she gets her own way, by wheedling , tears and temper tantrums.

The Navy are stuck with the old clunker. Come the Falkands and they figure they may as well use it for something (the guns still work); and if it gets sunk, so much the better, and older and less passionate Queen will accept that as the final denouement of the tragedy .

I'd never quite thought that way, but as I am seeing the points of the people made in this thread, perhaps that saves a KGV from the scrapper (wouldn't be Vanguard, because she was commissioned after WWII was over) and in the early 1980s it gets sent south, if for no other reason than patriotism and the 14" guns. After all, what have the Argentines got that can sink it? Their subs won't have a prayer of getting past British SSNs, and Exocets and iron bombs won't do stink all to something with the armor of a KGV......
 
US naval expert/author Norman Friedmann said there were almost no armour piercing missiles in any nation´s arsenal by the early 80´s beceause there were next to no armoured ships in commission. Even the Soviets would have had a hard time sinking an Iowa-BB.

Friedman is wrong I guess by using Cold War era sources. Soviets had armor piercing warheads for their missiles.

http://www.dtig.org/docs/Russian-Soviet Naval Missiles.pdf

Even with HE warheads the Soviet ASM's would be more than enough to mission kill any battleship. The worst threat would naturally be the heavy 650mm wake homing torpedoes. With working influence fuze single hit could mission kill a battleship and two could send it to bottom.
 
No BRITISH Battleships in the 1980's. Need the money for SSBNs.

Yeah, but Vanguard is much easier to accomplish, and I did say its a challenge. Besides, the British Media and many others thought of it as the "Mighty Hood", and I figured that perhaps the "Mighty Hood" could have been a tool to destroy the Argentines, too.
The "Mighty Hood" was nothing of the kind. She had her powder magazines ABOVE her ammunition magazines! She was a Battlecruiser, NOT a Battleship! That means she moves like a butterfly, stings like a bee, but has the survivability of both. Think the Queen Mary with 15" guns. The last surviving seaman from the ships' complement of 1400 men put it best: "She was a beautiful ship, but with a glass jaw." There are even suggestions that it was a hit from the Prinz Eugen's 8" guns that actually destroyed the Hood. But neither the Germans (who wanted the credit for the martyred Bismarck) nor the British (who could only accept that a battleship sank the Hood) wanted to know anything about this theory, for obvious sentimental reasons.:)
 
Rule Vanguard, Vanguard rules the waves!

If not, I'll write one. :D
I hope you're not one of those people for whom ASB is krytonite. I'll assume not. One of the MOST popular TL's on the ASB format right now is the "Naval Gift" story. It is a VERY well-written storyline about two ships being ISOT'd to the Falkland Islands in the year 1900. From the first day of WWII, the HMS Glorious. From the first day of the Korean War, HMS Vanguard. No crews, everything else is intact. Wait, I forgot. One crewmember from HMS Glorious made the trip. The ship's cat, Captain Kidd.:D Everything spools from there. And its' gone as far as 1910 and 19 pages!:eek:
 
God Save Invincible!

I vaguely remember discussions regarding Australia buying HMS Invincible prior to the Falklands taking place. Any thoughts?
Nothing wrong with your memory. The Invincible WAS on the block to Australia. The Thatcher Government was forced to negate the deal and pass the sale over to Invincible's under-construction sister ship Ark Royal. I remember a famous photograph of Invincible sailing past the still building Ark Royal on her way to the Falklands. Ironically, the coming of the Hawke Administration in Australia nixed the deal for either ship, as Hawke was determined on massive budget cuts in defense. Therefore, instead of getting rid of unwanted carriers, Maggie was stuck with both ships as they had become world-famous and the pride of the Royal Navy in a way not seen since HMS Hood in WWII!!:D:cool:
 

Redbeard

Banned
This is a good one :)

In May 1941 Hood and PoW meet Bismarck and Prinz Eugen at Denmark Strait as OTL, but in this ATL Hood turns 1/10th of a second later (because the helmsman keep thinking about his last wonderful night with his girlfriend) and Bismarck's initial salvoes miss - narrowly but still miss.

In the following seconds Hood finds the range and her 15" shells start raining down on Bismarck, and soon Bismarck is silenced with no main guns in function. A few salvoes finish off PE and Hood closes in to give the burning hulk of Bismarck the coup d'grace with torpedoes.

PoW has taken part in the battle, but with much reduced efficiency due to various technical problems (a little worse compared to OTL).

Hood and her crew is given a hero's welcome in UK, but back in Germany Hitler goes bananas and orders all major surface ships of the Kriegsmarine scrapped.

Short of the threat from the surface Kriegsmarine the RN can focus on the Med. and give Hood her planned reconstruction incl. new machinery, revised armour scheme, DP secondary guns etc. The order for HMS Vanguard is cancelled shortly before the planned building start in October 1941.

The RN cuts off the Axis forces in North Africa (Rommel surrendering in late 1941 becoming this ATL's Paulus), and considerable Commonwealth reinforcements are sent to Singapore (army, RAF and RN).

As a consequence the Japanese assault on Malaya and Singapore is a complete failure. In the next couple of years CW and US forces blockade Japan in combination with a campaign liberating first French Indo China, Hong Kong and and PI. In 1944 Hood returns to service as good as new (actually much better) and in the invasion of Taiwan she succesfully engage and sink IJN battlecruisers Hiei and Haruna.

The capitulation ceremony of the Japanese forces in China take place on the decks of HMS Hood, and in the early 50s the young Queen Elisabeth takes a "tour de Commonwealth" onboard HMS Hood. The Queen and the ship become symbols of the new vital Commonwealth.

Plans to scrap her in the late 1950s is met by an uproar all over Commonwealth. Aided by huge private donations HM Government is obliged to keep HMS Hood as a "Reserve Fleet Flagship with public access to certain areas". Each year she is taken out for a short cruise and at the Queens 25th anniversary she even fires a number of main gun rounds.

As the Falkland incidents starts as in OTL the Admiralty presents the PM with a crash plan to have HMS Hood be the flagship of the force to be sent to the Falklands. Basically the ship just need a few deck installed close-in defence systems and an update on certain electronic systems (mainly communications) as her main defence will be based on a force of modern escorts. Retired crew members will be onboard as "Senior Operation Consultants", some of them having taken part in the 1941 battle.

She is considered close to immune to any air- or shipborne weapon the Argentinians have, and with better protection against torpedoes (from subs) than any other ship in the RN. Her 15" guns are considered valuable in support of land operations.

At the Falklands the HMS Hood instantly draw all attention of the Argentine forces, and they actually succeed in landing two Exocets on HMS Hood. But the first only damage some superstructure and the other detonates harmlessly on the main armour belt. The images of the scratched but intact armour on HMS Hood goes around the world, and is seen in contrast to the modern destroyer HMS Sheffield. She was hit in the superstructure and even though the missile didn't detonate the ship caught uncontrolable fire in her light alloy superstructure and had to be abandoned.

In support of the land campaign HMS Hood almost expends all her main gun ammo, but the effect is invaluable. At Port Stanley the Argentinians surrender as soon as they see how the 15" shells demolish their field fortifications.

The deeds of HMS Hood of course make every Commonwealth citizen very proud, but is also used by all kind of people, from ultra conservatives to tree huggers, to point out the uselessness of modern technology and how things were much better in the old days.

A Yorkshire candidate for Parliament even suggest the reactivation of HMS Victory...

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
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^ Nicely done. :D

I realized that having the British keep a full-sized BB in commission is next to impossible due to the costs, but part of the reason I thought of Hood in particular is that she was due for a major refit in 1941-42 which got scuttled because of the need to track down Bismarck.

I had thought that after the refit is done in late 1942, Hood would be sent out east to lead the British Pacific Fleet with another of the KGVs (Anson or Howe, probably), hooking up with the Australian and American navies to avenge the destruction of Prince of Wales and Repulse. After the Americans at Midway chew up much of the IJN's naval aviation capacity, things go better. During the Battle of Leyte Gulf, Hood gets its finest hour. The only big gun among the Taffy 3 force, it is hit and hit hard by the Japanese. Despite being both outnumbered and seriously outgunned, Hood and the Americans fought with everything they had. Three American destroyers were lost in the battle, as were escort carriers Gambier Bay and St. Lo, and Hood shot out almost its entire ammunition supply, but the hard fight had made the Japanese think that they had run head-on into the much more powerful American force. Hood added to that by hitting Yamato half a dozen times with its 15" guns, and Yamato's return fire missed. Hood added to it by rescuing survivors from several lost units, picking up over six hundred survivors.

With the Phillippines won, Hood took the position as flagship of the Commonwealth forces in the Pacific. Despite the wishes of the Americans, on January 19, 1945, Hood led the Royal Navy/Commonwealth squadron assigned to land some lumps on Singapore. By this point, the British could spare more forces for the Pacific Fleet, leading to Hood being joined not only by Anson (which had come with it to the Far East), but also by King George V, Nelson and Queen Elizabeth. The powerful naval squadron was way more than what the Japanese could handle. They couldn't not take over Singapore, but the British started shelling until the Japanese surrenders. Australian and Canadian troops arrived in mid February to take back Singapore, and the few remaining Japanese troops surrendered on March 12. That done, the British fleet stormed back to assist the Americans in the battle of Okinawa. The Japanese resisted on Okinawa just as bitterly as they had at Singapore, but eventually they were overrun, with the island being cleared officially on May 22.

But as the British fleet - which included five battleships and nine aircraft carriers - reached the islands, Japan's Navy made one last-ditch effort to reinforce Okinawa. British and American carrier aircraft found Yamato and a small screening force. Hood, King George V and Anson stormed to blast Yamato, hoping to get her before the Americans did.

Yamato found itself being attacked from the air and from the sea. Hood's 15" guns did plenty of damage. While the final kill would be from American carrier aircraft, Hood and her two newer sisters had left massive welts - inspection of the wreck years later found several holes made by the British battleships.

The atomic bombings of Japan made the invasion of Japan mercifully unnecessary, and after observing the surrender of Japan on the deck of USS Missouri on September 6, 1945, Hood and her sisters returned to Britain victorious.

Britain's post-war economic situation was not terribly good, and it forced a major reduction in the size of the Royal Navy. The oldest BBs were scrapped, but Hood, the four surviving King George V class battleships and HMS Vanguard escaped the scrappers in the short term. Vanguard, Hood and Howe stayed in commission, though Hood was decommissioned into reserve in 1955, followed a year later by Vanguard. Dedicated attempts in the late 1950s allowed Hood, Howe and Vanguard to become museums - but thinking that they may be needed again, part of the museum requirements was that the vessels be kept in such a shape that they could be called back if the Royal Navy needed them. This would be an important note in the years to come.

Britain by this point however was coming strongly out of the bleak years of the 1950s, and Britain in the 1960s and early 1970s would see strong economic growth, allowing the nation to both recover fully from WWII and make it one of the more prosperous nations of Western Europe. But the 1970s saw economic problems caused both by world conditions and conditions within Britain.

The victory of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 led to her planning a renaissance of Great Britain and its military in particular, which she had blasted as a "tool of the Americans". Thatcher had hoped to boot Britain's still-decent economy into a shape where Britain could afford to have a more powerful armed forces. With that in mind, Thatcher made many economic reforms, but the military forces did want to see the improvements she had promised.

Ronald Reagan's 1980 election campaign in the USA had a plan for a 600-ship Navy, and one of the ideas was reactivating four Iowa class battleships which had fought with distinction in WWII. That idea captured the imagination of some Royal Navy commanders, too. Realizing that such an idea had merit, Thatcher asked the RN to make sure that such a reactivation was possible. It was found that Howe was too slow for a modern warship, but that Hood and Vanguard could be reactivated if needed.

On April 2, 1982, Argentina invaded and occupied the Falklands Islands, to the stunned shock of Britain and the world. Argentina had guessed that Britain wouldn't fight over the Falklands, small windswept islands thousands of miles from home.

They had guessed wrong.

On April 4, Thatcher ordered the Royal Navy to figure out how to get the Falklands back. That discussion turned to the need for amphibious support......which was a tool for which both Vanguard and Hood were well-suited. Hood was ordered reactivated on April 7, and towed to Vosper Thornycroft for a refit to make it ready to serve. Four Phalanx CIWS systems were installed and the vessels' communications were heavily upgraded, and a number of other refinements, including better climate control, better electronics, a helicopter deck and the removal of many of her 20mm and 40mm autocannons. Ready, Hood recommissioned in Liverpool on April 29, 1982, and stormed south as the flagship of the Royal Navy's fleet to take back the Falkland Islands.

The Argentines quickly realized that they had very little which could do any more than scratch Hood, but they tried anyways. An Exocet hit on ultramodern destroyed HMS Sheffield caused it to catch fire uncontrollably and eventually be abandoned by her crew. An Argentine Exocet hit Hood, but it hit in the ship's armor belt, and which did cause a massive explosion and fire but very little actual damage. Attacks with 500 lb bombs which sank several vessels was also attempted on Hood, but in one case good shooting by a 40mm gun crew on Hood knocked down the A-4 Skyhawk fighter which dropped the bomb.

Needless to say, the big ship was very welcomed by the Royal Marines. Her 15" guns obliterated Argentine defensive positions, and despite repeated Argentine calls for the battleship to be attacked, their calls got nothing in response. Hood's gunfire, directed by ground troops and her Lynx helicopter, cut Argentine positions on the island to pieces. Argentina surrendered on June 14.

Hood's gunfire had been the difference-maker in the eyes of many of the Royal Marines and many observers, which also contributed to Reagan's decision to reactivate the Iowa class. Upon her return home, many within the Royal Navy wanted Hood fully refitted and put back into service on a regular basis, and some wanted the same for Vanguard......
 
Actually, what I more had in mind is that Hood becomes a museum ship in the mid to late 1950s - its very famous of course - and when Thatcher comes to power in 1979, she orders a substantial rebuild of the British military, both to create jobs and increase Britain's prestige - and one of the plans is to put Hood back in commission. She gets reactivated in 1980, hauled to a Clyde shipyard for a major refit, and when the Falklands War hits, she's pulled from the shipyard and sent with Ark Royal, Hermes, Invincible and the rest of the RN's fleet to go pound the Argentines......

As has been said this was the complete opposite of the type of thing Thatcher got up to.
Since she was so close to Reagen and they were pretty similar in many respects its easy to confuse the two but...No. Cutting back spending on everything without a direct benefit was very much the order of the day with Maggie, particularly with the military.
 
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