Challenge: Flip US, Soviet rolls in WWII

[tarrant77]

Have the Americans only at war with the Nazis, and the Soviets only at war with the Japanese.
Have the POD anytime after the red revolution in Russia. I think it would be easy keeping the czar's for this challenge.

 

[Hannibal.Caesar]

Have the Americans only at war with the Nazis, and the Soviets only at war with the Japanese.
Have the POD anytime after the red revolution in Russia. I think it would be easy keeping the czar's for this challenge.

Well, things were more complicated than you let on. For example, the USA was at war with both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, not just one of them. Secondly, the USSR invaded Manchuria near the end of WWII; in effect, by the end of the war they were at war with Japan too.

 

[Karlos]

The US joins the war against germany earlier, in early 1941, as FDR sees a chance after a big US ship is sunk by U-Boats. The americans send troops to Africa and Greece and Hitler decides to postpone a year its attack on the URSS until the angloamericans are dealt with.
Stalin sees that the germans are too ocupied to make trouble and decides to eliminate the japanese threat in manchuria, attacking them in september, while they were planning their Pearl Harbour thing.

 

[Sam]

Have the Americans only at war with the Nazis, and the Soviets only at war with the Japanese.
Have the POD anytime after the red revolution in Russia. I think it would be easy keeping the czar's for this challenge.

You know, when I saw the thread title, my first thought was "how do we reverse the levels of casualties of Russia and America?"

 

[Max Sinister]

Doesn't work. Hitler wanted the lebensraum in the East.

 

[Roberto]

Hitler's theology did include lebensraum, but he was smart enough to figure out that war with the US before Barbossa would make the aforementioned operation a disaster.

 

[Atreus]

Hitler sinks a USN ship in 1941, US fights Germany. Japan skirmishes with the us, but get's caught in a battle which becomes a trap slightly smaller than Midway. the Combined fleet has been humiliated, US and Japan sign a truce. Bloody fighting in Europe, but similar to OTL. Barbarossa starts in 42, with D-Day around 1943. US conquers Germany up to the Oder, but Soviets get anything East to occupy. Meanwhile the soviets fight a full scale war over Manchuria. Around 1944, US is drawn in. US nuc's Hiroshima, Soviets occupy Hokkaido, the US taking Honshu south.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Hitler sinks a USN ship in 1941, US fights Germany.

Atreus,

You're greatly overestimating US belligerence. Before Pearl Harbor, Germany had already torpedoed several US warships were and sank USS Reuben James with a loss of ~115 lives and no war resulted.

In November of 1941, the US Congress passed an extensive of the Selective Service Act by one vote.

Japan skirmishes with the us, but get's caught in a battle which becomes a trap slightly smaller than Midway. the Combined fleet has been humiliated, US and Japan sign a truce.

Given US racial attitudes at the time, a truce after Japan begins 'skirmishing' with the US is totally implausible. In the OTL, FDR found it hard to maintain the 'Germany First' policy.

Bloody fighting in Europe, but similar to OTL. Barbarossa starts in 42, with D-Day around 1943.

In the OTL the vast majority of US war production was directed to the fight against Germany. Even if you add the what was historically sent to the Pacific theater, you still won't have enough for an amphibious assualt in northwestern Europe by 1943. There simply isn't enough time to build what is necessary, train the troops required, and accomplish all the other prerequisites; i.e. beat down the Luftwaffe.

Meanwhile the soviets fight a full scale war over Manchuria.

Which they'd win in less than a month. In the OTL, the USSR beat Japan inside a week. Granted, the Kwangtung Army had been raided for close to a decade for combat units and equipment for the many China, Burma, and Pacific campaigns and over 50% of the force the USSR beat in August of '45 was made up of reservists called up that month. However, the Soviets had already kicked Japan's ass in 1939, which was before they suffered through that "graduate course" in land warfare Germany sprung on them. In the OTL's 1939 Japan's armor, artillery, and other weapon were already second-rate and Japanese doctrine very poor. By this ATL's 1944 the difference would be even greater.

Around 1944, US is drawn in.

What happened to your truce?

US nuc's Hiroshima, Soviets occupy Hokkaido, the US taking Honshu south.

With Germany knocked out early would the Manhattan Project even be finished when it was in the OTL? With the USSR occupying Manchuria and Korea very early on, they'd be in Hokkaido well before the Us got anywhere near Honshu.


Bill

 

[Markus]

Atreus,

You're greatly overestimating US belligerence. Before Pearl Harbor, Germany had already torpedoed several US warships were and sank USS Reuben James with a loss of ~115 lives and no war resulted.
In November of 1941, the US Congress passed an extensive of the Selective Service Act by one vote.

Depends! German subs had stick orders to shoot in self defence only, US warships had shoot-on-sight orders. Obviously not all US politicians were as eager to go to war, as FDR.

 

[Atreus]

Atreus,

You're greatly overestimating US belligerence. Before Pearl Harbor, Germany had already torpedoed several US warships were and sank USS Reuben James with a loss of ~115 lives and no war resulted.

In November of 1941, the US Congress passed an extensive of the Selective Service Act by one vote.



Given US racial attitudes at the time, a truce after Japan begins 'skirmishing' with the US is totally implausible. In the OTL, FDR found it hard to maintain the 'Germany First' policy.



In the OTL the vast majority of US war production was directed to the fight against Germany. Even if you add the what was historically sent to the Pacific theater, you still won't have enough for an amphibious assualt in northwestern Europe by 1943. There simply isn't enough time to build what is necessary, train the troops required, and accomplish all the other prerequisites; i.e. beat down the Luftwaffe.



Which they'd win in less than a month. In the OTL, the USSR beat Japan inside a week. Granted, the Kwangtung Army had been raided for close to a decade for combat units and equipment for the many China, Burma, and Pacific campaigns and over 50% of the force the USSR beat in August of '45 was made up of reservists called up that month. However, the Soviets had already kicked Japan's ass in 1939, which was before they suffered through that "graduate course" in land warfare Germany sprung on them. In the OTL's 1939 Japan's armor, artillery, and other weapon were already second-rate and Japanese doctrine very poor. By this ATL's 1944 the difference would be even greater.



What happened to your truce?



With Germany knocked out early would the Manhattan Project even be finished when it was in the OTL? With the USSR occupying Manchuria and Korea very early on, they'd be in Hokkaido well before the Us got anywhere near Honshu.


Bill

I see what you mean, but I stick by the basic premise. Anyways, no one said it had to be that plausible. Frankly the challenge is almost impossible. This is what, in my opinion, would be the best (obvious) way to accomplish the challenge. To change it to much would mean a completly different WWII.

As to the US reaching Japan. same way that the US gets an occupation zone in Germany if D-Day fails. Japan surrenders after the bomb, America, having helped knock Japan out of the war, gets a zone of at least Kyushu. And I never Said that the USSR was not fighting Germany, so some equipment would be tied up in Europe.