Cato's Cavalry

[Outofprint]

I'm not saying you can't collect taxes at all ever, but the level of dependability and efficiency necessary to keep more than a cadre to build an army around takes a lot of bureaucracy for the era.

Rome and Persia are exceptional for having that.

Something like what was built by the people of my ancestors, who thankfully will lose(?) in this timeline?

Imagine having to have guys like Aurelianus every generation or so because guys like Constantine won't go away.

That ought to give a sense of it.

I'm not familiar enough with Roman Britain, but it sounds like the organization is already full of holes by what we see so far.

Centralising what is already their is a good start in the way of bureaucracy in pre Roman Briton and i understand that thing will not be entirely business as usual and a certain amount of innovation will be required. By leaders with vision in the long run to keep things running.
Maybe it is necessary to crush upstarts with a show of force to try and convince other upstarts its not worth losing their head over the matter.

 

[Elfwine]

Centralising what is already their is a good start in the way of bureaucracy in pre Roman Briton and i understand that thing will not be entirely business as usual and a certain amount of innovation will be required. By leaders with vision in the long run to keep things running.
Maybe it is necessary to crush upstarts with a show of force to try and convince other upstarts its not worth losing their head over the matter.

Its not even just crushing upstarts. You just need the machinery to supply all that's needed, when its needed, where is needed...and to deal with bribes, incompetence, and everything else ought to wreck that (even if not specifically intending to wreck it - tax evasion simply because one doesn't like paying taxes is almost as bad as actively rebelling).

But yes, there's a good start in place, even if it is full of holes.

 

[Outofprint]

Its not even just crushing upstarts. You just need the machinery to supply all that's needed, when its needed, where is needed...and to deal with bribes, incompetence, and everything else ought to wreck that (even if not specifically intending to wreck it - tax evasion simply because one doesn't like paying taxes is almost as bad as actively rebelling).

But yes, there's a good start in place, even if it is full of holes.

If the council could be brought together under good leadership in TL before everything completely falls apart there may be hope. yes

 

[Elfwine]

If the council could be brought together under good leadership in TL before everything completely falls apart there may be hope. yes

Here's to hoping that its enough. A Roman Britain that is able to hold together enough of a state to mean something is both awesome and...

Well, likely to do well. Even if that does mean my ancestors lose this timeline, I'd count that as a good thing for the island.

 

[Outofprint]

Here's to hoping that its enough. A Roman Britain that is able to hold together enough of a state to mean something is both awesome and...

Well, likely to do well. Even if that does mean my ancestors lose this timeline, I'd count that as a good thing for the island.

Anything that delays the final fall of civ and the complete dark ages is worth a try dont you think.

And on the topic of dark ages i wonder weather a successful post Roman Briton will embrace Christianity to their advantage?

 

[Elfwine]

Anything that delays the final fall of civ and the complete dark ages is worth a try dont you think.

And on the topic of dark ages i wonder weather a successful post Roman Briton will embrace Christianity to their advantage?

Well, as long as the ERE stands, I'm not worried about civilization falling no matter what happens in the West. But anything that preserves it in the West is worth a try, yes.

Not sure how Christianity would be something they could embrace to their advantage (not arguing, just not sure I'm following).

 

[Outofprint]

Well, as long as the ERE stands, I'm not worried about civilization falling no matter what happens in the West. But anything that preserves it in the West is worth a try, yes.

Not sure how Christianity would be something they could embrace to their advantage (not arguing, just not sure I'm following).

Well what i was getting was there could be some trouble with pagan creating trouble and resisting Christianity and if the leadership decides not to embrace Christianity like Western emperor Valentinian there could be trouble.

 

[Elfwine]

Well what i was getting was there could be some trouble with pagan creating trouble and resisting Christianity and if the leadership decides not to embrace Christianity like Western emperor Valentinian there could be trouble.

Ah. Yeah, this would be...bad.

There are quite enough threats to British (Britonic?) unity as is.

 

[Outofprint]

It would be interesting to know Cato stance on Christianity.
If he is a really strong pagan he wont like the crusades the Christians are on and he will use his influence with his army to Christians a really hard time.
Edit

 

[Clibanarius]

It would be interesting to know Cato stance on Christianity.
If he is a really strong pagan he wont like the crusades the Christians are on and he will use his influence with his army to Christians a really hard time.
If that happens there could be a future Crusade against post Roman Briton.

The Crusades came long after Cato died.

 

[Elfwine]

You mean Cato isn't the Immortal Roman, whose duty it is to ensure that the Roman Empire endures forever and ever?

Well, that would explain why he's not a virgin.

...random babbling aside, would his religion matter here? Cato hasn't struck me as the type of person it does matter for.

 

[Clibanarius]

Kind of hard for a corpse to have a direct say so in events that'll happen almost a thousand years later

 

[Elfwine]

Kind of hard for a corpse to have a direct say so in events that'll happen almost a thousand years later

That's the whole point. He's not dead, he's an undead abomination with two heads.

...I have to show you where that idea is from (to the extent its not just a production of my demented imagination and fantasies) before I derail this truly interesting thread, but...if the crusades can be brought up in the 5th century, its already a little off topic, at least until the author smacks us around.

 

[RPW@Cy]

It would be interesting to know Cato stance on Christianity.
If he is a really strong pagan he wont like the crusades the Christians are on and he will use his influence with his army to Christians a really hard time.
Edit

The only evidence of Cato's religious beiefs is on the first page -

"“Mithras protect us,” Cato muttered under his breath as he traced the shape of the raven on his forehead quickly. Mithraism was frowned on these days, but he was operating on reflex."

This is actually understating things - Mithraism had pretty much been stamped out by this point following an Imperial decree of 391 banning all religions except Christianity in the Empire (thought its questionable how far this was enforced in as remote a place as Britain). Given too that Christianity was compulsory in the army some time before that, it's almost certain that Cato is at least nominally Christian too, even if he did follow the mysteries at one point and occasionally lapses.

Using the army to attempt to suppress Christianity at this point will at most result in a civil war that Britain simply can't afford - you're at least a century too late for this sort of thing. More likely it'll simply get Cato killed and things will carry on. BTW It's also almost certain that Aurelianus was a Christian - our earliest source Gildas praises him (which he didn't do with pagans) and says he won his victories with God's help. Aurelianus's response to Cato getting a sudden dose of fanaticism and attempting to stat a war of religion can be imagined.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

Mithras...
snip...

Mithras...Mithrasism...
You see i read that, and all i can think of is Lord of the Rings.

 

[Outofprint]

The only evidence of Cato's religious beiefs is on the first page -

"“Mithras protect us,” Cato muttered under his breath as he traced the shape of the raven on his forehead quickly. Mithraism was frowned on these days, but he was operating on reflex."

This is actually understating things - Mithraism had pretty much been stamped out by this point following an Imperial decree of 391 banning all religions except Christianity in the Empire (thought its questionable how far this was enforced in as remote a place as Britain). Given too that Christianity was compulsory in the army some time before that, it's almost certain that Cato is at least nominally Christian too, even if he did follow the mysteries at one point and occasionally lapses.

Using the army to attempt to suppress Christianity at this point will at most result in a civil war that Britain simply can't afford - you're at least a century too late for this sort of thing. More likely it'll simply get Cato killed and things will carry on. BTW It's also almost certain that Aurelianus was a Christian - our earliest source Gildas praises him (which he didn't do with pagans) and says he won his victories with God's help. Aurelianus's response to Cato getting a sudden dose of fanaticism and attempting to stat a war of religion can be imagined.

It is possible that the law was not enforced by authorities in Britannia being at the far edge of the empire not wanting to threaten there rule because at the time Theodosius passed the laws in 491. Rome had been in its death throws for a while.
But some how i doubt that Cato is into the suppression of the Christian religion unless it threatens his dream of a stable post war Briton state even if he is a core pagan.
There is some possibility that Cato might encourage freedom of religion the basic right of of a modern state to stop the prosecution of the pagans might be both threaten his beliefs and and state stability as well.This could be enough for Cato and his allies to act and pass a freedom of RE. It is this chance i am interested in.

 

[Berserker]

Just read the TL: LIKING IT!!!

still curious iff the Picts are going to have anny effect on later events

 

[Outofprint]

If freedom of RE is addopted by the Britons it would allow paganism and Christianity to melt togeather more thoughly than it did in OLT persecution and fear.
This over the long run could mean that Briton would develop their own for of Christianity in the long run.
Kind of like what happend with the development of Orthodox Christanity in the Easten Roman Empire conforming more to Greek.
It could be argued that the spread and development of Orthodox RE could of been more effective the Easten Roman Empire had not become so over stretched defending to many borders.
But i would argue that this central unity of the Orthodox allowed allowed the Byzantine Empire to last many hundreds of years after the fall of the West.
If the post roman Britonic empire could survive the post roman barbarian invasion then it being an island with less borders the goverment could constentate more on enhanceing the power of Christianity. Then the Byzantines were able to.
Therefore theoretically the Britonic Empire with less threats could last longer and spread more of it Christianity around than the Byzantine empire did. Possibly spreading Briton Christianity to enforce its new conquests.

 

[Sior]

http://www.faithandworship.com/Celtic_Christianity.htm

 

[DuQuense]

One of the first things the Romano-Britons need is a naval fleet

If the Calvary is fast enuff -- They can capture the Pirate's Vessels.

Up to the time of Justian's Plague in the 530's The Britons still considered themselves as part of Rome.
They still traded with Constantinople. It was the traders bring the Plague to the Britons, that weakened them enuff for the Saxons to take over.