Cato's Cavalry

[stubear1012]

A few suggestions

I have been thinking about your time line and I have a few suggestions. Please feel free to do as you want with them.

1) Based on my research on Wiki, the English or Welsh longbow was around for a long time but did not become a military weapon until the Middle Ages. I am wondering if in this time line, you see an earlier development of the long bow as a way for the Britons to defend themselves against raiders.

2) Based on what I have read, I can see Britain become more stable and safer than Gaul. Do you see Roman citizens leaving Northwestern Gaul and going to Britain? If it was planned and organized, they could bring their money, live stock, libraries, tools, and may be weapons. These groups could be made up of engineers, skilled craftsmen, boat builders, farmers, ex or retired military, and so on. They could bring resources and skills to Britain. If instead, it is groups of people fleeing across the Channel ahead of the latest warlord, then Britain would still benefit from the people.

3) While on Wiki, I found some maps of Roman Britain. They represent Britain around 150 AD but still roads and locations of natural resources don't change much. You may want to look at posting some to help your readers.

Good Luck

stubear1012

 

[Art]

Cymraeg . . .

One of the first things the Romano-Britons need is a naval fleet. The Classis Gallica also known as the Channel Squadron, or the Saxon Shore fleet, basically disappears in the 3rd Century B. C. E. , and never returns. That was because of money. Another question, will the rise of effective proto-cataphracts change the remnants of the Roman Army in Britain? Will the legionary disappear? And where will the money come from to fund this cavalry force? London and the other cities are still there for now, but without a fleet, piracy increased everywhere. Britain needs ships, because without them the Saxons and other Germanic tribes will destroy trade and raid coastal villages, and the Picts and Scoti will come down like the wrath of god, and then (Vortigern) will make his infamous bargain with Hengist and Horsa . . . Cato and his fellows had better have a force ready before then!


As for Arthur . . . Who knows? Why was he always called (Pendragon)? Strange name, is it not?

 

[Elfwine]

Chief dragon, in half-translated Welsh, if I remember correctly.

 

[Michael B]

Britain needs ships, because without them the Saxons and other Germanic tribes will destroy trade and raid coastal villages, and the Picts and Scoti will come down like the wrath of god, and then (Vortigern) will make his infamous bargain with Hengist and Horsa . . . Cato and his fellows

Don't forget the Irish raiding Wales as well. If you think of all the intruders and throw in a civil war then the native British of any one faction are going to be outnumbered.

 

[Art]

The (Scoti)

ARE the (Irish) at this time in history. Scotland/Caledonia was settled (the Lowlands at least) by the Scoti, who were Irish/Gaels/Celts from Ulster. And who are (the native British) in that context?

 

[Michael B]

ARE the (Irish) at this time in history. Scotland/Caledonia was settled (the Lowlands at least) by the Scoti, who were Irish/Gaels/Celts from Ulster.

You still have the Irish raiding Wales

And who are (the native British) in that context?

Modern day Wales and England (roughly)

 

[Outofprint]

Thanks Cymraeg for starting a a better than life TL.
In my opinion with you have done everything right so far as TL development.

For example you have used great in depth personalities which allows a new level of engagement with them on a personal level. The characters you have developed infect you with their good sense of humour and like-ability that grows on you with each new update.
Basing your TL plot around the basic laws of common sense goals.
Using your character as organised weapon to develop a group of like minded individuals that attack the problem of the falling of the Roman Empire at its rotten hart with innovations such as leadership (Cato) and tech innovation (stirrups for cavalry).
The next one is a biggy to me as a lot of books and TLs seem to waste time with throw away characters like Constantine III that add nothing but get TL bogged down in avoidable problems and head aches for the readers that are only interested in reading for pleasure.
Its good to see that your TL that gets straight to the point and gets rid of point less characters.
I also feel that you have devoted enough time to answering question from your readers like me with out going over board.

Well done Cymraeg on your great TL so far its better than 90% of everything else i a read on and off line "no joke".

I look forward to more from this terrifyingly awesome TL.

 

[Elfwine]

Outofprint:

A question, speaking as a person with some interest in writing (both alternate history and otherwise).

What does this mean

The next one is a biggy to me as a lot of books and TLs seem to waste time with throw away characters like Constantine III that add nothing but get TL bogged down in avoidable problems and head aches for the readers that are only interested in reading for pleasure.

Presumably this is not just about having characters who thwart the goals of the protagonists/heroes/whatever.

 

[Outofprint]

Outofprint:

A question, speaking as a person with some interest in writing (both alternate history and otherwise).

What does this mean

Presumably this is not just about having characters who thwart the goals of the protagonists/heroes/whatever.

You are correct in your assumption.

I hate characters who waste my time with their petty bickering about small humanities of death and destruction = the bleeding obvious that has nothing to do with the plot of the TL or book.

Good old Harry Turtledove is notorious when it come to developing wasted characters who wonder around talking to in to much detail about what they ate for breakfast and so on. Instead of developing characters who are at the centre of the important events in his plots line.

 

[Cymraeg]

Poplicala did not look a happy man when he walked into the room, and by the way that he slumped into the chair and groaned, nor did he sound a happy man.

“How was your trip?” Aurelianus asked as he looked up from the mound of work that he had piled on his desk.

“Bloody awful,” the old soldier grunted. “Too many idiots with two left feet, too many other idiots running to me with chits to sign, too many bureaucratic idiots wringing their hands over the cost – and all the time there’s the thought that every time I get on a horse I have to discard years of knowledge and remember how to ride the new bloody way.” He sighed and then squinted at Aurelianus. “The money’s starting to worry me.”

“I know,” sighed Aurelianus. “But I’m finding ways around that. I’ve heard that the taxes that should be going to Rome... aren’t.”

Poplicala gaped at him. “You’re joking,” he said in horror. “What happened?”

His friend shrugged. “I don’t know. The usual tax collectors are out and about, but due to the chaos along the Rhenus no-one’s sending them over to Gaul for fear of them being either stolen by barbarians or ‘appropriated’ by some provincial governor to pay the latest band of Foederati. The money’s piling up here and there, in Deva, Eboracum, Lindum and Londonium. That’s the one thing I’m hoping that this bloody council, if it’s ever finally called, will decide on.”

Scratching his chin Poplicala frowned at him. “Maybe,” he said reluctantly. “I just hope that others haven’t heard about it. I heard about what happened to Constantinus, but there are one or two others that you should be worried about.”

“Oh?” asked Aurelianus with a frown. “I was hoping that life would be easier with him having died from his own stupidity. Who are these others?”

“Gaius Marcus Belgicus and Quintus Gratianus. They talk a great deal but have a little under their tunics. When they were with Constantinus they could prop each other up and support each other. Without him they’re not as strong as they were. They both share his ideas – someone takes the purple and then they cross to Gaul, put the barbarians down, restore order and finally march on Rome and throw Stilcho from the Tarpeian Rock.”

Aurelianus rubbed his forehead tiredly. “All of which would be the greatest possible stupidity. This isn’t the time of Constantine! We don’t have Legions here any more! Gaah!!” He threw up his hands and then stood abruptly and paced over to the window.

“We can’t afford to lose a single man,” he said, watching a drop of rain trace its slow path down the other side of the glass. “I had a messenger this morning from Segontium. There was another raid nearby a week ago. Raiders from Hibernia. Not much damage – they were driven away by the garrison – but there are reports of more chaos in Hibernia. Tribes moving north. And that’s the last thing we need.”

“What about these two troublemakers?” Poplicala asked.

Aurelianus stood there for a long moment, watching the rain run down the window. “Leave them to me,” he said grimly.

 

[Outofprint]

Ohh god no not a reincarnation of the terrible two in Gaius Marcus Belgicus and Quintus Gratianus with their brains in their collective bums.

Is there any chance of these two being saved from their own stupidity?
Or can we look forward to more plot building action and violence?
I await the decision of Aurelianus.

 

[Caesar]

Very interesting, I have to say.

 

[Art]

Indeed . . .

Two fools who amounted to nothing. . . If Cato and Aurelianus can get together a real force, then they will not need the legions. . . and, speaking of which, it is not really clear if all of the 3 Legions of Britannia leave at the orders of Flavius Stilicho or Constantine the 3rd. . . What records we DO have of the time are quite incomplete.

 

[Outofprint]

Two fools who amounted to nothing. . . If Cato and Aurelianus can get together a real force, then they will not need the legions. . . and, speaking of which, it is not really clear if all of the 3 Legions of Britannia leave at the orders of Flavius Stilicho or Constantine the 3rd. . . What records we DO have of the time are quite incomplete.

What about having the best of both worlds by combining the disciple of the Legionaries with a fast effective cavalry.

It is after all necessary to a force to cover a broken cavalry charge and to have a well trained disciplined army to garrison to occupy and control the territory of the New Britannic/Briton Empire.

 

[Timmy811]

If they use that money that's been piling up they can build a formidable cavalry force, one that can protect the island and project power.

 

[Elfwine]

What about having the best of both worlds by combining the disciple of the Legionaries with a fast effective cavalry.

It is after all necessary to a force to cover a broken cavalry charge and to have a well trained disciplined army to garrison to occupy and control the territory of the New Britannic/Briton Empire.

The Britons would be lucky to have a united Brittania (in the near future). And I'm not sure if the economic infrastructure to support a standing army exists there.

Short term cash is one thing. Long term steady income for the state and functioning administration? That's going to be harder to obtain and maintain.

Not to be a downer, but that's a big problem.

 

[Outofprint]

The Britons would be lucky to have a united Brittania (in the near future). And I'm not sure if the economic infrastructure to support a standing army exists there.

Short term cash is one thing. Long term steady income for the state and functioning administration? That's going to be harder to obtain and maintain.

Not to be a downer, but that's a big problem.

The Britons already produce everything they need with their mining industrial production to make weapons and coins and seeing as the Romans occupied Britannia for roughly 400 years. I see no reason why their wouldn't have a mint around somewhere and some locals producing Roman wepons as it would be cheaper to make them locally rather than importation. So I reckon that Britannia has all the infrastructure and production to maintain and administer a pre Roman state.
What they really need is some good strong leadership to beat the administration into shape and make things work and put down the upstarts and pretenders that attacked pre Roman Briton.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Roman.Britain.Production.jpg

If the Britons with drawing the Legions from Hadrians wall and it is taken by the barbarians it will make them look very weak. I speculate that this is what brought on the Saxon invasion of 408.

 

[Elfwine]

The Britons already produce everything they need with their mining industrial production to make weapons and coins and seeing as the Romans occupied Britannia for roughly 400 years. I see no reason why their wouldn't have a mint around somewhere and some locals producing Roman wepons as it would be cheaper to make them locally rather than importation. So I reckon that Britannia has all the infrastructure and production to maintain and administer a pre Roman state.
What they really need is some good strong leadership to beat the administration into shape and make things work and put down the upstarts and pretenders that attacked pre Roman Briton.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Roman.Britain.Production.jpg

If the Britons with drawing the Legions from Hadrians wall and it is taken by the barbarians it will make them look very weak. I speculate that this is what brought on the Saxon invasion of 408.

There's a difference between being able to maintain a state equal to OTL's Middle Ages and a state at least in the Early Modern age when it comes to administration. I should have used the term political/economic there - its about the State's ability to do stuff, not the island's.

Minting coins and making swords is not nearly as important as being able to collect taxes.

And so much of them. Standing armies are expensive - if it just took being able to mint coins and make swords, we'd see them emerging roughly the same time as the medieval monarchies.

I'm not saying this is impossible - if the Britons survive the invasion with most of the old Roman infrastructure intact, this is possible. Just. But its not going to be easy or a complete success - at most it means that they can maintain what they have and as things grow and develop over the centuries this becomes the foundations for more.

 

[Outofprint]

There's a difference between being able to maintain a state equal to OTL's Middle Ages and a state at least in the Early Modern age when it comes to administration. I should have used the term political/economic there - its about the State's ability to do stuff, not the island's.

Minting coins and making swords is not nearly as important as being able to collect taxes.

And so much of them. Standing armies are expensive - if it just took being able to mint coins and make swords, we'd see them emerging roughly the same time as the medieval monarchies.

I'm not saying this is impossible - if the Britons survive the invasion with most of the old Roman infrastructure intact, this is possible. Just. But its not going to be easy or a complete success.

I dont understand why cant a pre Roman Briton successfully collect its taxes if the strong leadership is provided to beat the administration into shape so everything can run smoothly.

 

[Elfwine]

I dont understand why cant a pre Roman Briton successfully collect its taxes if the strong leadership is provided to beat the administration into shape so everything can run smoothly.

I'm not saying you can't collect taxes at all ever, but the level of dependability and efficiency necessary to keep more than a cadre to build an army around takes a lot of bureaucracy for the era.

Rome and Persia are exceptional for having that.

Something like what was built by the people of my ancestors, who thankfully will lose(?) in this timeline?

Imagine having to have guys like Aurelianus every generation or so because guys like Constantine won't go away.

That ought to give a sense of what a medieval (OTL 500 or so AD to 1500 or so AD) looks like when it comes to administration.

I'm not familiar enough with Roman Britain, but it sounds like the organization is already full of holes by what we see so far.

So as a rough outline of what you need to supply on a dependable basis:

Men (which have to either be persuaded to volunteer or be conscripted, each of which takes resources)
Salary (which has to be paid pretty reliably)
Food (also has to be available pretty reliably)
Armor (which is expensive)
Shields (listed separately from armor as they need to be replaced more often)
Weapons (also not cheap)
Ammunition if applicable (that's a lot of arrows)
Medicine (another expense)
Clothes (yet another expense)

Rain or shine. Good harvest or bad. For - so far as the state is concerned - eternity.