In the late 18th century, there was an idea pushed by Catherine II of Russia to partition the Ottomans' European territory, which ran roughly as follows:
  • Austria would receive Bosnia, Serbia, northern Albania, and western Wallachia.
  • Russia would receive Pontus in Anatolia and create two new client states:
    • the Kingdom of Dacia in the former Romanian principalities, ruled by a Russian noble (most likely Prince Potemkin, the main originator of the whole scheme).
    • the restored Eastern Roman Empire in Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, and Constantinople, ruled by Catherine's son Constantine.
  • Venice would receive various islands including Morea, Crete, and Cyprus.
greek plan small.png

Not the most exact representation, but I prefer it to the map provided on Wikipedia.

As previous threads on this site have discussed, there are a variety of reasons why this plan wouldn't work even with full Austrian support. However, if it did, how might trade and culture develop differently in the Russian-backed states and the region as a whole? Here's a few ideas:
  • A more Russophilic nobility in Dacia could influence the development of the standardized Romanian language to use more Slavic loanwords rather than introducing vocabulary derived from French (though to be fair, the Russian nobility were also big fans of French culture in this era).
  • Scholarly narratives on Greek culture would take a different form than the philhellenism embraced by many European intellectuals which put classical-era Greek culture on a pedestal and largely ignored the impact of the Eastern Roman Empire. This scenario effectively turns that upside-down, with Russia conquering "Tsargrad" and giving their self-image as the "Third Rome" a serious boost.
  • How would the neo-Byzantine identity develop both within and outside the nation, if it could manage not to fracture right away into Hellenic and Slavic camps (as well as Aromanian, Albanian, etc)? Since it becomes independent before the rise of romantic nationalism, there's a lot potential for the history of the Balkans to go in a radically different direction. With the Russians backing the new Byzantine state, it's possible that later periods with nationalism and centralizing state power pushing a single national identity could privilege *Bulgarians and other South Slavs over Greeks and other groups while still embracing the aesthetics and culture of the old ERE.
  • I know from timelines like "Pride Comes Before a Fall" that there was a major farmers' movement for land reform in Greece due to the power of Turkish landlords. In a scenario where they become part of the new Eastern Roman state through Russian military intervention rather than a fully indigenous revolution, it's possible that the landlord class would simply be replaced with newly imported nobles rather than pushing through any major land reform.
  • It would be remiss of me to overlook the other beneficiaries of the Greek Plan, Austria and Venice, and how this would affect them. Would they be able to handle their gains or let them slip through their fingers?
    • The latter possibility is certainly a concern for Venice, since this is not long before the Napoleonic Wars of OTL which ended the Serene Republic. If they do collapse, their island possessions could be annexed by Rhomania, but it's also possible for Britain to snap them up since they did so with the Ionian Islands IOTL. A restored Principality of Achaea in personal union with the United Kingdom would be fun to see, if only temporarily. This split could have some staying power if Greek nationalism is not realized in the Rhomanian state due to its aforementioned potential to elevate Slavic nobility and culture, resulting in a Greek state in the former Veneto-British insular possessions that views itself as separate from the mainland—no enosis coming any time soon. If Russian Pontus becomes independent later on, this could mean three separate states with distinct claims on Hellenic identity!
    • Austria, meanwhile, now has even more land in the Balkans, and to be honest I have no idea how this would affect things with it occurring decades before the Ausgleich. For administrative purposes, maybe their Bosnian gains are simply included as an autonomous part of the Habsburg Kingdom of Croatia. In later years, operating on the previous possibility of a Slav-centric Rhomania, there could be an attempt to court the South Slavs in the Austrian Balkans as fellow Romans (or rather римляни—"Rimlyani"). This would be a weird take on *Yugoslavism, albeit one that's probably more limited to Serbians as fellow Orthodox Christians (and that reminds me that the Ecumenical Patriarchate would be in a different position, but I don't know what that would look like).
  • Finally, how would the Ottomans react to such a crippling defeat? (Obviously things would already need to be going horribly for this to work, but let's just handwave a bit for the sake of the prompt.) Would they have any chance of reversing some of the Russo-Austrian gains later on, or just be doomed to collapse even further over the next few decades? The Middle Eastern power projection capabilities of the western European powers would be limited compared to a century later with Sykes-Picot, but they could probably still make some inroads in the region, possibly backing the Ottomans themselves as a counterweight to Russian dominance. Closer to home, resurgent players like Egypt (if it becomes independent) and Iran could assert their influence in such a scenario.

Thanks for reading, and let me know your thoughts on this scenario!
 
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Wasn't the whole scheme just a facade for the Russians to annex all the lands of this "Greek Empire" along the way? I don't see such empire being independent for so long, let alone having Constantinople/Tsargrad not being ruled directly by them.
 
Wasn't the whole scheme just a facade for the Russians to annex all the lands of this "Greek Empire" along the way? I don't see such empire being independent for so long, let alone having Constantinople/Tsargrad not being ruled directly by them.
To start with, that neo-Byzantine <whatever> would be too small for being considered a true “empire” (in the terms of being a major power) even if the status is being accepted based upon the historic claim. Taking into an account that it was supposed to be given to Catherine’s grandson, ots status of a Russian puppet state was quite obvious to everybody.

Would it be self-sustainable or not is a big question because on one hand it would have to fend off the Ottoman attempts to take it back and on the other the Hapsburgs’s never-ending itch of expansionism. More or less the same, as far as the Hapsburgs are involved, goes for “Dacia”: no matter what was promised at any point, the Hapsburgs would want at least influence on the lower Danube because for them this was important trade route.

So both these states would be heavily dependent upon the continued Russian support and even in OTL CII pretty much run Russia to the ground with her projects and wars: the country already accumulated a huge foreign debt, the paper currency was in a free fall, army was in a complete disarray, administration was corrupt (even by the Russian standards) and dysfunctional, serfdom turned into a de facto slavery. How Russia would be able to provide an effective support of two satellite states is anybody’s guess. Was there any tangible benefit in the whole Byzantine idea? None whatsoever. Control of the Straits was an empty sound because practically all trade had been conducted by the foreign ships: Russian merchants did not have any interest in a sea trade. So the whole thing could be considered strictly within a military aspect: ability of the Russian navy to operate on the Med but to which purpose if a commercial component was absent? Strictly for the prestige. Or for embarking on some other fancy schemas, which would inevitably irritate either Brits or French or both.
 
It'd be interesting that's for sure, the conflict of realpolitik, alliances, military and economic needs, religious relationships and more.

I'd caveat this with what I think a generous price for Austrian support would be - no installing a member of the Russian nobility or royal family on either Dacia or the Greek Empire (I don't believe they'd recognise them as the Roman Empire, being the HRE still and all).

If we assume that, I think we've got something interesting on our hands. To keep this brief interests are

  • Austria
    • Clear access along the Danube and beyond
    • Security in the South and Carpathians
    • Legitimacy as Holy Roman Emperor
  • Russia
    • Legitimacy as Third Rome/Restorer of Constantinople
    • Protector of Orthodoxy
    • Security in the South
    • Extend Russian power into the Med
  • Venice
    • Money
    • Not being crushed by Austria
  • Romans
    • The ability to act independently
    • Legitimacy as Romans
    • Security in the East
    • Balance of Power to prevent Northern Invasion
    • Bosporus Trade
  • Dacia
    • Existing
    • Balance of Power to prevent Austrian conquest or Russian annexation.
    • Uniting Romania
There are some obvious conflicts here, most around "Who are the proper Romans" - none of these parties will acknowledge the Ottomans as such, but the Austrians won't recognise the others as they claim to be the Holy Roman Emperors, and the Russians might not either as the Third Rome.

Lets start with Venice. It's an interesting foil because the Greeks want southern Greece, and the Austrians can play the two against each other for regional domination. Venice is in theory a useful naval ally for the Greeks and could dominate trade there just as they did previously - however, Russia might not be on board with that. Venice is easily pressured by Austria (more so than the Greeks for sure) so Russia has an interest in a strong Greek trade network and naval presence to defend themselves, and to expand the reach of their own good and exports (even if indirectly).

The Greek Empire - I think this name may stick for a while, till it can independently assert itself. Probably ruled by one of the leading Greek families installed since it'd be neither Austrian or Russian, with a sort of Austro-Russian power balance that will long-term pull towards Russia because of religion, strategic concerns, etc. Austria would still want security to the mouth of the Danube, but if that can be guaranteed (alongside peace) I think they'd lose out to the effort Russia would put into getting influence. What has potential is that this state is effectively in a position to rebuild itself from the ground up. It can leverage Austrian and Russian knowledge to an extent for building it's army, alongside Ottoman knowledge. It has the potential to be a really interesting melting pot of ideas if it can start to flex it's muscles and stretch its legs economically.

Dacia is an odd duck. It's proto-Romania and it's people are tied into Austrian territory. It's strategic concerns are very Russian with them or their allies on nearly every border. However I think this would be where an important secondary political fight happens. Too pro-Russian and Austria might be inclined to take it to secure the Danube. Too pro-Austria and the Russians might annex it to assert control. The third option is pro-Greek which should avoid alienating either great power, and might appeal to the Greeks to have a neighbour that isn't an existential threat, but a potential partner.

I think this Greek-Dacian Axis is where most of the future of this scenario lies. They are the only two parties who don't have conflicting interests. Neither wants each others territory, asserting control over Dacia doesn't serve Greek interests, and merely hurts their other ones. Neither of them want to take any territory from Russia - but neither do they want to depend on Russia. Effectively they are Balkan powers with Balkan concerns, rather than Austria with far more than Balkan concerns, and Russia with far more than Balkan concerns. Whilst they aren't like to promote separatism, Dacia or Greece are prime candidates for exiles to flee to, materials to be brought in from. Essentially they're a catalyst for wars in the Balkans, either independence wars, or to shift control to these regional powers. But they also have a capacity to be a way to shed dead weight for the Austrians - where they can offload problems. Serbia too far away and a pain in the neck to control - offer territory to the Greeks if they'll put down the rebellion. Romanians in revolt? Same deal. Austrian troops can focus on Germany, Italy, and other concerns.
 
It'd be interesting that's for sure, the conflict of realpolitik, alliances, military and economic needs, religious relationships and more.

I'd caveat this with what I think a generous price for Austrian support would be - no installing a member of the Russian nobility or royal family on either Dacia or the Greek Empire (I don't believe they'd recognise them as the Roman Empire, being the HRE still and all).

Which would be a non-starter because Catherine’s grandson was “assigned” as Byzantine “emperor” and Potemkin as a king of Dacia.
If we assume that, I think we've got something interesting on our hands. To keep this brief interests are

  • Austria
    • Clear access along the Danube and beyond

Not happening because Dacia is on the way and may get all sorts of the ideas.
    • Security in the South and Carpathians
Not necessarily if there is a problem with Russia and the new states are siding with it.
    • Legitimacy as Holy Roman Emperor
Not disputed after the WoAS.

  • Russia
    • Legitimacy as Third Rome/Restorer of Constantinople

The notion of the 3rd Rome was dead for more than 1.5 centuries. Russia was an acknowledged empire on its own right and did not need any extra “legitimacy”.
    • Protector of Orthodoxy

Much easier to get this status from the Ottomans because independent pseudo-Byzantine <whatever> and Dacia may decide that they don’t want to be protected by Russia (like Bulgaria in the early XX).

    • Security in the South
    • Extend Russian power into the Med

To which purpose exactly if Russia did not have its own sea trade? 60-70% had been handled by the British ships and most of the rest by some other European merchants.

  • Venice
    • Money
    • Not being crushed by Austria
  • Romans
    • The ability to act independently

Very funny. 😂 Why would CII and JII want to create a state that would act independently?
    • Legitimacy as Romans
The “Romans” ceased to exist long ago so this legitimacy means what? Claim to the whole Roman Empire?

    • Security in the East
Nope, because the Ottomans are just across the Straits.
    • Balance of Power to prevent Northern Invasion

If Russia is capable of creating this state, who is going to balance it?
    • Bosporus Trade

 
What about how the rest of the Ottoman Empire will be impacted? I did read somewhere that if Constantinople is taken away, there's a high possibility that the Ottoman Empire can implode on itself.
 
What about how the rest of the Ottoman Empire will be impacted? I did read somewhere that if Constantinople is taken away, there's a high possibility that the Ottoman Empire can implode on itself.
True, my interpretation was that if Constantinople is in danger of being taken, the Ottomans are probably imploding already. At the same time, it’d be a helluva comeback story if they did manage to recover from losing so much land in one fell swoop.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Dacia could easily be an elective monarchy, so Potemkin's assignment as first king doesn't mean he has a dynastic hold, and the various boyars and Greek nobles could dream of being elected in his stead.

As for the Ottomans, in this period both Egypt and Iraq [sic] are quasi-independent Mameluke states. If the Ottomans are forced out of Constantinople, then Bursa is the first stop, the old capital but might be viewed as too vulnerable?? If so, Smyrna or even Mersin would seem the next most logical locations. The Sultan is generally recognised as the Caliph, but this disaster might result in some splintering, and if that happens then Egypt and Iraq are probably no longer sending tribute or recognising Ottoman hegemony.

A rump Anatolia=Kurdistan-Syrian state might emerge but it will be prone to local big men declaring independence, and probably the Hejaz is going off on its own direction.
 
I googled this. Apparently Austria agreed and went to war in support of the plan. Army got wrecked by malaria due to poor logistics and badly fed troops. Emperor got sick and his death ended Austrian agreement.

So for a POD lets say Austrian reforms under Joseph II are different and lead to less unrest and better military logistics (different advisors, maybe?). Troops are properly fed. No malaria epidemic for the Austrian Army. Joseph lives and continues to lead from the front.

People who know more than me, how many other things would we need to change to make this realistic? If Austria and Russia are doing significantly better than OTL because of the above could this butterfly Sweden attacking Russia and Prussia threatening to join The Ottomans?

If Joseph's reforms are different, maybe people listen to Robespierre and France doesn't see liberating the Austrian netherlands as a good/easy idea (or at least it takes them longer to decide on such a silly move)?
 
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Dacia could easily be an elective monarchy, so Potemkin's assignment as first king doesn't mean he has a dynastic hold, and the various boyars and Greek nobles could dream of being elected in his stead.

As for the Ottomans, in this period both Egypt and Iraq [sic] are quasi-independent Mameluke states. If the Ottomans are forced out of Constantinople, then Bursa is the first stop, the old capital but might be viewed as too vulnerable?? If so, Smyrna or even Mersin would seem the next most logical locations. The Sultan is generally recognised as the Caliph, but this disaster might result in some splintering, and if that happens then Egypt and Iraq are probably no longer sending tribute or recognising Ottoman hegemony.

A rump Anatolia=Kurdistan-Syrian state might emerge but it will be prone to local big men declaring independence, and probably the Hejaz is going off on its own direction.
Assuming the Ottoman Empire goes caput in that scenario, I could see another war continue where Russia tries to grab as much as it can mainly in Anatolia, Armenia, the Caucasus, and Assyria. It’ll mean a very long war with Persia though.

And assuming the French Revolution comes right on schedule and Napoleon is sent to Egypt, I have to wonder how he’ll do this time.
 
Would it make more sense to take Bithynia as well just to secure safe passage to the Med?
Yes, and the area around Smyrna -- to protect its Greek population against Turkish pogroms in reprisals for all the other losses -- as well; probably also the Dodecanese, although possibly those might fall into Venice's share instead.
 
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