Casimir Hohenzollern lives longer

[Jan Olbracht]

After doing Valencian Hohenzollern scenario I'd like to do something easier and more predictable. So Casimir Hohenzollern, Margrave of Bayreuth (1481-1527), oldest son of Frederick of Ansbach and Sophia Jagiellon hasn't died from dysentery fighting for Hungarian throne for Ferdinand Habsburg and lives another 20 years. Casimir was Habsburg supporter and unlike his brothers remained Catholic and opposed Reformation. He was also known as cruel monster (thus he was called "bloodhound") who commited numerous atrocities during Peasant Wars. He was brutal not only towards rebelious peasants-he imprisoned his own father in Plassenburg Castle under pretense of menthal illness. After his death his brother George (who was called "Pious" with large dose of irony-George was degenerate, who happened to be interested in theology) took care over his children and raised them as Lutherans-George also 'raised' his cousin Louis of Hungary with very bad effects, although I'm not sure if monster Casimir would do that job better, most significant difference would be the fact, that Casimir's children would be raised as Catholics. And there could be more children-Casimir's wife Susanna of Bavaria was still young, so let's give them additional son and daughter, Casimir jr. born in 1529 and Sybilla, b. 1533, died young. Assuming, that George would still die in 1543 OTL situation would be reversed and Casimir would took care over George's children (I would not be surprised if some 'accident' happened to little George Frederick, Casimir's nephew. Monster who imprisoned his own father for 12 years would be capable to do it) so Franconia would be united once again under Casimir's rule. Casimir ITTL would die in 1547 after his older son Albert (OTL Albert Alcibiades) fell from his favourite horse, which was gift from daddy and died as result. As result nothing came from his marriage plans and he would not marry his Polish cousin (IOTL Alcibiades wanted to marry Anna Jagiellon, but due to his lifestyle, debts and Protestant faith was rejected) 18 years old Casimir jr would succeede father as Margrave. Say, that Casimir II is not so openly cruel (rather preffers more subltle methods when needed, like poison) and is better in managing his finances than brother. So he is able to make friends-in 1548 at funeral of his great-uncle Sigismund the Old he meets his cousins-Sigismund Augustus, whom he befriends, and his sisters. After death of Queen Barbara Radziwiłł, when internal conflict inside Jagiellon Dynasty became less intense, Casimir asks for hand of King's sister Anna Jagiellon. Sigismund Augustus agrees and in 1556 Anna became Margravine of Ansbach.
So we have Franconia under rule of Catholic monarch closely tied with Jagiellons, that is one major change (the fact, that Casimir and his descendants would be also heirs to Ducal Prussia and practically guaranteed to be elected to PLC throne is also worth mentioning) but there is also another place, that would be affected by POD-Palatinate. IOTL Marie, oldest daughter of Casimir and Susanna, married Elector of Palatine Frederick III and convinced him to convert to Protestantism. ITTL Marie is not raised by Protestant uncle, so is still Catholic, and is not guaranteed to marry Frederick (but OTOH I see no reason why she couldn't), so as butterfly effect Palatinate could (doesn't mean that it would happen for sure, but propability vastly increased) remain Catholic. What do you think about such scenario?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

After doing Valencian Hohenzollern scenario I'd like to do something easier and more predictable. So Casimir Hohenzollern, Margrave of Bayreuth (1481-1527), oldest son of Frederick of Ansbach and Sophia Jagiellon hasn't died from dysentery fighting for Hungarian throne for Ferdinand Habsburg and lives another 20 years. Casimir was Habsburg supporter and unlike his brothers remained Catholic and opposed Reformation. He was also known as cruel monster (thus he was called "bloodhound") who commited numerous atrocities during Peasant Wars. He was brutal not only towards rebelious peasants-he imprisoned his own father in Plassenburg Castle under pretense of menthal illness. After his death his brother George (who was called "Pious" with large dose of irony-George was degenerate, who happened to be interested in theology) took care over his children and raised them as Lutherans-George also 'raised' his cousin Louis of Hungary with very bad effects, although I'm not sure if monster Casimir would do that job better, most significant difference would be the fact, that Casimir's children would be raised as Catholics. And there could be more children-Casimir's wife Susanna of Bavaria was still young, so let's give them additional son and daughter, Casimir jr. born in 1529 and Sybilla, b. 1533, died young. Assuming, that George would still die in 1543 OTL situation would be reversed and Casimir would took care over George's children (I would not be surprised if some 'accident' happened to little George Frederick, Casimir's nephew. Monster who imprisoned his own father for 12 years would be capable to do it) so Franconia would be united once again under Casimir's rule. Casimir ITTL would die in 1547 after his older son Albert (OTL Albert Alcibiades) fell from his favourite horse, which was gift from daddy. As result nothing came from his marriage plans and he would not marry his Polish cousin (IOTL Alcibiades wanted to marry Anna Jagiellon, but due to his lifestyle, debts and Protestant faith was rejected) 18 years old Casimir jr would succeede father as Margrave. Say, that Casimir II is not so openly cruel (rather preffers more subltle methods when needed, like poison) and is better in managing his finances than brother. So he is able to make friends-in 1548 at funeral of his great-uncle Sigismund the Old he meets his cousins-Sigismund Augustus, whom he befriends, and his sisters. After death of Queen Barbara Radziwiłł, when internal conflict inside Jagiellon Dynasty became less intense, Casimir asks for hand of King's sister Anna Jagiellon. Sigismund Augustus agrees and in 1556 Anna became Margravine of Ansbach.
So we have Franconia under rule of Catholic monarch closely tied with Jagiellons, that is one major change (the fact, that Casimir and his descendants would be also heirs to Ducal Prussia and practically guaranteed to be elected to PLC throne is also worth mentioning) but there is also another place, that would be affected by POD-Palatinate. IOTL Marie, oldest daughter of Casimir and Susanna, married Elector of Palatine Frederick III and convinced him to convert to Protestantism. ITTL Marie is not raised by Protestant uncle, so is still Catholic, and is not guaranteed to marry Frederick (but OTOH I see no reason why she couldn't), so as butterfly effect Palatinate could (doesn't mean that it would happen for sure, but propability vastly increased) remain Catholic. What do you think about such scenario?

He sounds like a cross between a German Cesare Borgia and a 16th century crazy Roman Emperor. So he could be awesome.

Thanks, I didn't know all thisstuff about Kasimir

 

[Wendell]

This is a fun idea. Incidentally, he was not the first Hohenzollern to end up in the position of possibly ruling Poland.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Yes. Frederick the Iron was the first. Hohenzollerns were close to getting Polish throne several times, always someone's unexcepted death (or birth) prevented them from taking crown.

 

[Wendell]

Yes. Frederick the Iron was the first. Hohenzollerns were close to getting Polish throne several times, always someone's unexcepted death (or birth) prevented them from taking crown.

It would be good to see a Hohenzollern Poland timeline. Are there other possibilities for this as well?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

It would be good to see a Hohenzollern Poland timeline. Are there other possibilities for this as well?

Other good posibilities are:
-Sigismund (1538-1566) son of Elector Joachim II and Hedwig Jagiellon lives longer, he was seen by his uncle Sigismund Augustus as possible successor.
-Albert Frederick (1553-1618) Duke of Prussia is not menthally ill and decides to run in PLC royal election after death of Sigismund Augustus. He was great-grandson of Casimir IV, so would he convert to Catholicism he would be serious candidate to the throne.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Franconian margravites remaining Catholic is subtle change, but Palatinate is another story. Should I let Marie Hohenzollern (who is Catholic ITTL) to marry Palatine Frederick III and let these two remain Catholic? It would be easier to assume, that Marie still have Protestant leanings and even without influence of her uncle still converts at some point, but Catholic Palatinate is interesting change, worth to explore, as it skews proportion of Catholic vs Protestant Electors from 4:3 to 5:2.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

So I'll make Palatine Wittelsbchs confessionally waving and eventually converting in next generation. Meanwhile in Franconia...
Margravine Anna gave birth to two sons, Sigismund (b. 1558) and Casimir (b. 1560). Margrave Casimir became main candidate to succeede his childless brother-in-law on Polish throne-other brothers-in-law or nephews of Sigismund II are either Protestant or underage, in addition Sigismumd Augustus' Brandenburg and Transylvanian nephews would predecease their uncle, leaving Margrave Casimir as only serious candidate after death of king Sigismund in 1572. 1573 election was pure formality, Casimir Hohenzollern, himself descendant of king Casimir IV and married to daughter of Sigismund I left practically no chance for other candidates. Fondness to Jagiellon blood was still strong. At the same time Casimir's cousin, young Albert Frederick, Duke of Prussia, started to show first signs of menthal illness...

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Childless death of Albert Frederick would benefit Casimir. In such case Casimir would inherit Ducal Prussia (treaty made in 1525 between Sigismund the Old and Albert of Prussia given right to inherit Prussia to Albert's brothers and their descendants if Albert's line died out). Casimir (now King Casimir V of Poland) is quite Machiavellian ruler, but not as cruel as father, he would not kill his own relative to get his land. Still, as closest male-line cousin he'll serve as regent of Prussia, that fact would not make Albert Frederick's wife (Marie Eleonore of Cleves) happy.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

In internal politics King Casimir would initially use advise of Jan Zamoyski (like Bathory did IOTL) but not to the same degree and definitely would not let him to get position of hetman. Bathory IOTL left internal situation of PLC for Zamoyski to manage. Casimir would see, that chancellor is dangerous and his career should be stopped at some point (maybe even with poison?).

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Casimir V would be allied to Sweden during Livonian War, Queens of Poland and Sweden are sisters, Livonia is mostly in Muscovite hands and Ivan IV as precondition to any peace talks with Sweden demands Swedish Queen. PLC-Swedish conflict would likely still happen after Moscow is beaten and there would be clash over division of Livonia between victorious PLC and Sweden. But it would not happen before 1580s. Meanwhile in Prussia...
In march 1582 Duchess Marie Eleanor gives birth to her fourth child and dies from infection few days latter-doctors try to cure her with bloodletting. Daughter, named Eleanor after deceased mother survives. Menthal health of Albert Frederick as result of wife's death deterioriates even more. Casimir takes care over their children-newborn Eleanor and her older sisters-Anna and Marie (their brother named after father Albert Frederick, died as infant 1,5 years ago). At this time King Casimir V is already grandfather-his older son Sigismund married in 1580 to Maximiliana Maria, daughter of Albert V of Bavaria, and one year later their first child, son named Casimir Albert was born*.

*So we could see something like OTL situation, when 3 daughters of Albert Frederick married 3 members of Electoral line to decrease possibility of someone else claiming Prussia. Casimir is already heir to Duchy of Prussia, but always could make his claim even stronger and prevent other claimants from making trouble. And daughters of Albert Frederick have also claim to Duchy of Cleves.

Albert Frederick of Prussia (1553-1618) m. 1573 Marie Eleonore of Cleves (1550-1582).
Children:
1) Anna b.1576
2) Marie b.1579
3) Albert Frederick, born and died 1580
4) Eleanor b. 1582

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Casimir V would not let his cousin's daughters to marry anyone but his sons and grandsons. It doesn't mean his descendants would be able to successfully claim Jülich and Berg, but would prevent Brandenburg Hohenzollerns from claiming it, so in the end whole Duchy could be taken by Wittelsbachs, perhaps Cleves and Jülich would be divided between Johann of Zweibrücken and Philipp Ludwig of Neuburg?