Canadians in the Falklands War

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I like what I am seeing.


Why?

I can figure as mentioned that the Canadian Airborne Regiment would have been in on it...

How? All of us have explained that neither the UK or Canada has the lift capacity to either get that regiment to the islands or supply it once it's there.

I think that the Iroquois class destroyers and the AOR would have gone...

The AOR probably, but the destroyers are nothing but a liability. Sea Sparrow isn't enough and more warships with limited AAW capabilities hurts the UK rather than helps the UK.
 
The AOR probably, but the destroyers are nothing but a liability. Sea Sparrow isn't enough and more warships with limited AAW capabilities hurts the UK rather than helps the UK.
Two Sea King ASW helos and a decent point defense SAM system? Given the poms sent a number of ships (e.g. Leander class Exocet conversions, Type 21s) cable of carrying a single light helo and armed with Sea Cat SAMs south, I think the Iroquois class would be more than welcome.
 
Two Sea King ASW helos and a decent point defense SAM system?


Both good ideas after the fact.

At the time, the RN discounted the threat posed by the Argentine SSKs and the need for point defense.

Aside from the AOR, nothing in the Canadian inventory either met the needs the RN thought it had or could be lifted into the theatre.
 
I thought Canada was already helping Britain by taking over some of the RN duties in the North Atlantic. Surely a better use of resources than getting involved directly, with the bonus of if it all goes pear shaped there is no political backlash to deal with.
 
Why?



How? All of us have explained that neither the UK or Canada has the lift capacity to either get that regiment to the islands or supply it once it's there.



The AOR probably, but the destroyers are nothing but a liability. Sea Sparrow isn't enough and more warships with limited AAW capabilities hurts the UK rather than helps the UK.

I like what I am seeing in this thread because people are brining in bits of information about this possibility. I like that the persons taking part are being respectful and having fun with it.

The AOR would have went we both agree on that. The Iroquois class are just as capable as most of the escorts the RN sent down there and if needed they probably would have went.
As for ground forces I agree upon further examination that sealift is grossly lacking to send and maintain any force in the islands.
It has been mentioned that MARCOM would have backfilled RN commitments in the North Atlantic as happened in OTL and I agree that the biggest part of MARCOM assets would have had this mission.
But if Canada was asked to send ships the conclusion I come to is that an AOR and Iroquois class destroyers would have went.
 
I like what I am seeing in this thread...

So do I. Folks are all adding their bits of information and the pot is getting a vigorous stirring.

The AOR would have went we both agree on that.

Logistics help is always welcome.

The Iroquois class are just as capable as most of the escorts the RN sent down there...

And those escorts proved to be less capable than the RN originally believed. :(

I don't see why Britain would ask for the Iroquois vessels in the first place, if only because more ships place more strain on a scanty logistics capability, and, once the RN begins losing escorts to Argentine air attacks, I don't see Britain asking for what essentially are copies of the same "incapable" ships being lost.

As for ground forces I agree upon further examination that sealift is grossly lacking to send and maintain any force in the islands.

Yes. Remember, amateurs study tactics and professionals study logistics.

It has been mentioned that MARCOM would have backfilled RN commitments in the North Atlantic as happened in OTL and I agree that the biggest part of MARCOM assets would have had this mission.

That would be the most plausible way to help.

But if Canada was asked to send ships the conclusion I come to is that an AOR and Iroquois class destroyers would have went.

Again, sending the destroyers at the beginning only strains Britain's limited logistic capability and sending the destroyers after the RN suffers losses only provides the Argentines with more targets.

I can't see the decision being made at either time.
 
The ships maybe, but the F-18s weren't ordered until mid-1983*, well after that particular war ended. The review that led to the purchase was under way at the time (IIRC the Clark government had put it in motion in 1979, along with a few others such as the Aurora maritime patrol aircraft and maybe the Leopard tanks.)

*The first F-18s entered service with the CF in 1985 (410 Sqn.) and the last (either 416/441 Sqn in Cold Lake or 425 Sqn in Bagotville) were delivered in 1988. IIRC in 1988 the F-18 squadrons were: 410, 416 and 441 in Cold Lake; 425 and one other in Bagotville; and 409, 421 and 439 in Baden-Soeligen (sp?) West Germany. The air force has taken a big cut since then...)

Where would the Canadian fighters, F-104, F-5, or F-18, have flown from?
 
The Starfighters are based in Germany, mostly at Bonn or Ramstein. It would take a few days to deploy, and the F-5s are based at Cold Lake, Alberta. I really wouldn't fancy a Tiger against a Mirage or Etendard with only two Snakes and the gun, they would have to be used for CAS where they do pack a lot of punch. A Mirage III outclasses a Starfighter in ceiling, speed and range. Nor can an F-104 turn worth a damn. It does outclass an Etendard however, and since we're much better trained than the Argentines it would be evenly matched.
 
Where would the Canadian fighters, F-104, F-5, or F-18, have flown from?

Nowhere close enough to be able to do anything.

The aircraft at the time were the CF-101 Voodoo, the CF-104 Starfighter and the CF-116 Freedom Fighter (a Canadian built F-5). They were based in Cold Lake (AB), North Bay (ON), Bagotville (QC) and Baden-Soeligen (West Germany). Oh, and all of the aircraft in question were obsolete to some degree or other. The Hornets replaced all of the above (except for one squadron of F-5s that were retained as trainers into the mid 1990s) in 1985. At the same time, North Bay stopped being a fighter base.

Actually, about the only thing that we had that would have been remotely useful were the Oberon class submarines. At the time they actually weren't obsolete death traps.
 
I don't see why Britain would ask for the Iroquois vessels in the first place, if only because more ships place more strain on a scanty logistics capability, and, once the RN begins losing escorts to Argentine air attacks, I don't see Britain asking for what essentially are copies of the same "incapable" ships being lost.

Better that an "incapable" escort be hit than a critical unit like a carrier or one of the ROROs. In that the more escorts you have screening these high value assets the better. You send them in knowing they have a low chance of survival if the missiles fly, a bit better with planes and conventional bombs and accepting this because a dead frigate or destroyer is better than a carrier (of which you have limited numbers) out of the action.
For that reason I think the Iroquois class destroyers would have been asked for regardless of the logistical burden.

Another point, too bad the CP-140s don't have in air refuelling, they could've done antisub and monitoring missions around the islands.
 
Better that an "incapable" escort be hit than a critical unit like a carrier or one of the ROROs. In that the more escorts you have screening these high value assets the better. You send them in knowing they have a low chance of survival if the missiles fly, a bit better with planes and conventional bombs and accepting this because a dead frigate or destroyer is better than a carrier (of which you have limited numbers) out of the action.
For that reason I think the Iroquois class destroyers would have been asked for regardless of the logistical burden.

Another point, too bad the CP-140s don't have in air refuelling, they could've done antisub and monitoring missions around the islands.

Dude, that's another plane that didn't enter service until 1985 or so. The air force was still using the Argus (and the Tracker) at the time. The Falklands War was in 1982, and well, had we joined in, we'd have been stuck using junk that either couldn't get there or that would have been mostly useless. The CF didn't start getting it's new toys until '85 or so.
 
Better that an "incapable" escort be hit than a critical unit like a carrier or one of the ROROs. In that the more escorts you have screening these high value assets the better.


An Exocet's targeting system doesn't work that way. You can't confuse it or screen it by offering a large number of smaller targets because it's programmed to go for the biggest one it sees. That's one of the reasons the Atlantic Conveyor was hit among a group of smaller vessels.

Another point, too bad the CP-140s don't have in air refuelling, they could've done antisub and monitoring missions around the islands.

They weren't in service yet.

Seriously, you need to read up on just what aircraft, ships, and weapons were in service and how they actually worked. Until you know that you won't be able to add anything to your own thread.
 
Nowhere close enough to be able to do anything.

The aircraft at the time were the CF-101 Voodoo, the CF-104 Starfighter and the CF-116 Freedom Fighter (a Canadian built F-5). They were based in Cold Lake (AB), North Bay (ON), Bagotville (QC) and Baden-Soeligen (West Germany). Oh, and all of the aircraft in question were obsolete to some degree or other. The Hornets replaced all of the above (except for one squadron of F-5s that were retained as trainers into the mid 1990s) in 1985. At the same time, North Bay stopped being a fighter base.

Actually, about the only thing that we had that would have been remotely useful were the Oberon class submarines. At the time they actually weren't obsolete death traps.

The 707 air tankers might have been welcome (I forget the official Canadian name.)

The 280 class destroyers with 5inch guns and sea sparrow would have been worth sending along with the two newer aor's, which I seem to recall they were also designed to carry sea sparrow but they were never fitted.

Maybe some of the older steam destroyers with the 3 inch 70 cal rapid fire mounts might have been useful as well to escort the aor's but I doubt they would have been seen as capable of front line service.
 

abc123

Banned
IMO Australia, Canada and NZ done the best hing that they could: They offered to UK to take over RN patrol comittments around the world so freeing RN forces for action in South Atlantic.
If, however Canadians and Ozzies had a pair of carriers, that would mean something.
;)
 
The 707 air tankers might have been welcome (I forget the official Canadian name.)

CC-137 Husky was the Canadian designation for the 707s. :) Yes, they could have been used, but again, the Falklands is too far for virtually any land-based vessels. Ascension Island to Stanley is 3,775 miles, let's not forget, and none of Argentina's neighbors would allow Britain or any of Britain's allies to base planes near them on land. The carriers were it, pretty much. The best option here for Canada would probably have been borrowing or buying some F-111s from the Americans, and using them in tandem with the 707s and striking from Ascension. That would be possible, and that would certainly freak out the Argentines. But then again, Britain could also have made use of the CC-137s to tank up their Vulcan bombers for the same purpose.

The 280 class destroyers with 5inch guns and sea sparrow would have been worth sending along with the two newer aor's, which I seem to recall they were also designed to carry sea sparrow but they were never fitted.

Not sure about that one, but the guns and Sea Sparrows of the Iroquois class vessels might have been useful. The AORs definitely would have been, just to decrease the load on the logistical forces, and the Brits were really scraping at the bottom of the barrel there. Australia's HMAS Supply would have been a big help too, but if the Aussies were in on this, they could simply have sent the Melbourne, which was still in service when the Falklands War began, and would have rather shifted the odds through its own A-4s.
 
CC-137 Husky was the Canadian designation for the 707s. :) Yes, they could have been used, but again, the Falklands is too far for virtually any land-based vessels. Ascension Island to Stanley is 3,775 miles, let's not forget, and none of Argentina's neighbors would allow Britain or any of Britain's allies to base planes near them on land. The carriers were it, pretty much. The best option here for Canada would probably have been borrowing or buying some F-111s from the Americans, and using them in tandem with the 707s and striking from Ascension. That would be possible, and that would certainly freak out the Argentines. But then again, Britain could also have made use of the CC-137s to tank up their Vulcan bombers for the same purpose.



Not sure about that one, but the guns and Sea Sparrows of the Iroquois class vessels might have been useful. The AORs definitely would have been, just to decrease the load on the logistical forces, and the Brits were really scraping at the bottom of the barrel there. Australia's HMAS Supply would have been a big help too, but if the Aussies were in on this, they could simply have sent the Melbourne, which was still in service when the Falklands War began, and would have rather shifted the odds through its own A-4s.

Thinking about this a bit more..

The Iroquois could also each carry two Sea Kings and IIRC the AOR's were able to operate Sea Kings as well. A package of say two AOR's, 3 Destroyers with 5 inch guns and Sea Sparrow and say 8 to 10 Sea King Helos between them might have been usefull. By early 1980's standards the Iroquois were reasonably modern and the 5" rapid fire guns were also well regarded. (When the Canadians removed them from service they were able to find buyers for the used guns..) They also had chaff and flare launchers in this time frame and some form of exocet specific ECM would likely have been fitted as well if they did not alreaday have this capability. Their ASW capability would have been welcome as well to help counter the Argentian submarines.

I'd consider Sea Sparrow which was supersonic and radar guided to be some what more effective than the slower manually guided sea cat but it's not in the same league as sea wolf.

As far as I know the Argentians did not have any ecm for their aircraft so the various fire control systems for the sea sparrow and 5 inch mount would likely have worked as designed against attacking air craft.

Presumably blow pipe sam's could have been taken along (IIRC they were in service in the Canadian Army in this time frame) and various light automatic weapons would have been bolted on as well.

Even if the Canadians just sent two of their three AOR's, provided some of their best destroyers as an AA and ASW escort for their AOR's made their inflight refuling tankers avaliable to the UK and tried to stay out direct conflict with the Arentinans they could have made a usefull contribution at fairly low risk and would not have required the UK to provide extra escorts. The extra sea king helos would also have been welcome after the bulk of the Chinooks on Atlantic conveyor were lost.

My personal view is that the Sea Sparrow, 5" rapid fire (40 rpm IIRC ?) radar guided gun, chaff, and likely added ECM and light automatic weapons on an Iroquois could had a reasonable chance of handling the typical small scale air attacks that the UK faced but who knows what would have really happened.
 
Thinking about this a bit more...


I wish everyone would. :(

In thread of this type it's extremely important to separate what they knew then with what we know now. People always fail to do that, often unconsciously.

In this thread in particular, it's also important to separate what they knew in April when the task force was being put together from what they knew in late May when the task force had suffered losses at the hands of the Argentine air force.

Let's look at the possibility of including the Canadian AORs and destroyers from solely from a what they knew in April perspective. For this exercise, we'll assume that the ships are simply the UK's for the asking.

Logistics - The AORs will undoubtedly improve the task force's supply picture and defending the AORs, as was done in the OTL with most of the "fleet train", is only a matter of keeping those vessels beyond the reach of the Argentine air force. Remember, the Atlantic Conveyor was only hit because she needed to approach the islands to operate/fly off the helos she was carrying.

Asking for the AORs and the destroyers doesn't improve the supply situation at all because the destroyers add to the task force's supply requirements. In fact, the destroyers are going to need items like munitions and repair parts that Britain doesn't have meaning Britain is going to be forced to get even more of the OTL "back channel" help from various sources.

The question now is whether what the destroyers bring to task force is worth the effort of supplying them.

AAW - The abilities of the Argentine air force caught the RN very much by surprise. There's that well know quote by a RN officer about how, because Argentina produces great F1 drivers, we should have know they'd produce great fighter pilots too.

The RN believe the various SAMs, guns, and countermeasures available to it would handle whatever aircraft and munitions Argentina could throw at the task force. An example of the strength of that belief in April was that the Atlantic Conveyor was not fitted with chaff dispensers thanks to some minor legal concerns. Fitting the dispensers would have been a simple matter of welding, but worries over a few words in a contract scotched the idea because the belief for the need for those dispensers in April wasn't as great as the belief for the need for those dispensers in late May when the burned out hulk of the vessel had to be sunk by the RN.

Apart from countermeasures, the RN's other AAW weapons and how they were used proved lacking too. The guns did provide a nuisance for the Argentine air force at San Carlos, but accounted for little. The various SAMs provided little more than a nuisance too. In the end, the tempo of Argentine air attacks was constrained almost solely by the amount of munitions available to Argentina and not by British air defense.

It's clear that, because they carried the same weapons, the Canadian destroyers wouldn't have helped much with AAW but the RN wouldn't know that in April. So, the question returns to whether bringing the destroyers along is worth the increased supply demands their presence creates. I'd say no because the RN thought it already had enough of an AAW capability and the Canadian ships would provide nothing unique or special, merely more of the same.

ASW - This topic is far more murky. Neither government said much at the time regarding the activities of their submarines and both governments have admitted little in the nearly three decades since.

I feel the claims about the Argentine SSK must be taken with a grain of salt. The stories about her lining up for shots on British warships only to be foiled time after time by weapon malfunctions is too good to be true. The fact that the story only came to light more than ten years after the war, despite the fact that the junta would have jumped on any success story no matter how marginal and despite the fact that the members of her crew would have undoubtedly spoke up sooner, make these claims rather suspect.

Regardless of what the actual story is, ASW falls into the same general category AAW does. The RN felt they had enough and the inclusion of the Canadian destroyers ASW capabilities would depend whether the increase in ASW assets was worth the increase in logistical demands. As with AAW, the Iroquois didn't bring anything unique or special to the ASW table, so, again, I'd say in April the logistics question trumps all.

Shore Bombardment - The RN performed relatively little of this, apart from San Carlos, RN warships would perform fire missions at night and withdraw from the islands during day light. The need for shore bombardment was even less than that for more AAW/ASW capabilities, so, again, logistics wins in the end.

Summing up, logistics is the first and last argument. A decision to bring along the Canadian destroyers in April would hinge on the RN's belief in April that it had the AAW/ASW situation pretty much covered and that the logistic demands of the additional destroyers wouldn't be worth their contribution. The Canadian ships didn't provide any better or different AAW/ASW options and abilities either, so including them wouldn't provide the RN with something it didn't already have.

The only plausible way I can see for the Iroquois-class to steam south with the RN task force is for the Canadian government to insist that, if Canadian AORs are used, Canadian warships must escort them.

And that might just be why Britain didn't ask for the AORs in the first place.
 
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Australia's HMAS Supply would have been a big help too, but if the Aussies were in on this, they could simply have sent the Melbourne, which was still in service when the Falklands War began, and would have rather shifted the odds through its own A-4s.
In late 1981 and 1982 Melbourne was laid up pending a decision on a replacement ship (and thus if she'd need a refit to run on or could be tossed ASAP) and wasn't in the best material condition. So, probably would have been a bit difficult to reactivate her as a strike carrier in time (A-4 and Trackers were still in service with the FAA but I'd imagine by the time your get the aircrew requalified for carrier ops it'd be a bit late for combat)... probably best choice to bring her in would be as an ASW helo carrier cum Commando carrier.

Australia could also being our F-111s to the table... comparable range to the Vulcans so the long chain of air to air refuelling will be necessary but as a dedicated tac-strike type rather than strategic bomber, so probably better able to smash up a certain airfield.
 
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