British hold Malaya in 1942?

[kaymay]

A lot of the problems could have been stopped dead in there tracks if the troops were trained in jungle fighting. A stupid mistake sending green troops straight off troop ships into combat.

A tank regiment or two with Valantimes or the the Matilda MK2 would have worked a treat.

Now that Hitler had deceived to move against Russia we could have shipped fighters and pilots to Malaya Spitfire and or Hurricanes instead of sending them on the Artic convoys. We after all had battle tested pilots and planes.

A lot depends on Churchill not agreeing to send forces to Greece and allowing the desert Army to follow through with the drive across Libya etc.

One the Middle East is secure we have the scenario of extra ships not sacrific of the navy evacuating troops.

The ships could have been moved fairly rapidly to the Far East along with the desert Air Force and if the POD with the carriers happens then a better chance would be had.

It still all depends on the training and kit of the troops but even a weeks hard training is better than nothing at all.

One other thing to consider is the Indian troops a fair few turned anti British after the surrender if and it's a big if could be that in the early thirties India was give a time table and plans for indipendace say in 1948 or there about the Indian troops could have fought a bit harder.

My old dad was on Repulse when she went down and was captured on the fall of Singapore and the stories he told were not very nice at all he really hated the Japs and the Indians that turned into English hating men over night.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Whenever it's discussed about stopping the Japanese advance in Malaya, tanks always get mentioned as the answer. Personally I don't agree, yes they would have stopped something like the Slim River debacle, but much of the Japanese progress was due to the flanking attacks through the jungle. This removes the British advantage in artillery, and puts the emphasis on small unit actions, which with their better training, gave the Japanese infantry a hugh advantage. The 12th Indian bde and the Australians could hope to match them but the rest couldn't. The British hope was for fixed defence with pre registered artillery, but there were few places this could happen.

 

[Antiochus V]

As I am currently writing a timeline partly covering this I did a fair bit of reading on this sorry tale.

-I think tanks probably would have made an impact, although the terrain was far from perfect it would have allowed periodic local successes. For a variety of reasons I think the momentum of the Japanese advance would have been slowed down by their presence.
-I think the creation of defensive positions pre-war would have allowed the British to carry out a more orderly withdrawal, and probably forced a much higher ammunition expenditure on the Japanese, which their logistics would have struggled with. The British would still have faced being outflanked, but it would have taken longer, and might have been rarer if they had kept their fleet intact.
-My own view is that forces committed to HK would have been more usefully committed to Singapore, a bit more concentration of force would have helped, the history of the campaign on the allied side is one of defeat in detail and too little too late. The wonders of hindsight suggest a greater concentration of effort might have been wiser in almost all aspects.
-My own view is that the 18th division needed to be sent out much earlier and perhaps to Burma instead.
-Percival whilst not the right man for the job, might have been better if given clearer guidance and a bit more authority in Malaya.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Redeployment of the Hong Kong garrison is another often mentioned idea. I think this needs a closer look as to what could have been deployed to Malaya. One suggestion is Hong Kong would be de-militarised, or declared an open city. Problems here are the British were already struggling with a very aggressive Japanese attitude, who's to say the Japanese wouldn't have ignored British territorial rights and marched in on a context of protecting the worlds citizens from Chinese gangsters. In addition there had been threats of theChises triads rioting and causing a breakdown in social order. Indian forces used in the HKSRA and police had suspect Indian independence activists, so some British troops were needed to protect the mainly British white community. Talk of using the Canadian brigade is also questionable, already lacking a third infantry battalion, it also had no attached artillery and its was really only fit for garrison duty. Canada didn't offer it with a view it would be called upon to fight. So I'm not sure they would agree to its deployment to Malaya.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

There was also the unsaid thought that if Japan attacked, Britain would need to show the world an honourable butchers bill in defence of the colony.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

However some forces could be redeployed, both Indian battalions, the 6 inch and mountain batteries and possibly the machine gun battalion, leaving the Royal Scots as a policing force. Perhaps some of the fixed guns could have been taken, but would have been of limited use. There was no real RAF value there, but there were some useful Royal Naval assets, namely the destroyers and the MTB flotilla, which could have been of immense value in Malaya.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Another though I had was the poor use of local manpower resources. 1 and a 2nd raising, battalions of the Malay Regt, and a last minute raising of a unit of Chinese was poor. More could have been done here. Also the manpower found in the volunteer forces might have been better used.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Redeployment of the Hong Kong garrison is another often mentioned idea. I think this needs a closer look as to what could have been deployed to Malaya. One suggestion is Hong Kong would be de-militarised, or declared an open city. Problems here are the British were already struggling with a very aggressive Japanese attitude, who's to say the Japanese wouldn't have ignored British territorial rights and marched in on a context of protecting the worlds citizens from Chinese gangsters. In addition there had been threats of theChises triads rioting and causing a breakdown in social order. Indian forces used in the HKSRA and police had suspect Indian independence activists, so some British troops were needed to protect the mainly British white community. Talk of using the Canadian brigade is also questionable, already lacking a third infantry battalion, it also had no attached artillery and its was really only fit for garrison duty. Canada didn't offer it with a view it would be called upon to fight. So I'm not sure they would agree to its deployment to Malaya.

There were plenty of Garrison duties that the Canadians could have undertaken in Malaya in late 41 before the Japanese invasion freeing up those unit more acclimatised to the region for more offensive roles

This would allow the Canadian Brigade (which had its own HQ as well as A and B echelon units) to absorb a Scottish Regt also taken from the HK Garrison - Artillery would usually be assigned to a division HQ and assigned to a given Inf Brigade accordingly or support said Brigade though the parent Divisional HQ (or even Corps HQ and Army HQ if relevant) - the Brigade itself would not in practice command or provide the logi for said Artillery unit - so that is not relevant here.

As for resistance in HK - I agree but the powers that be knew the colony was indefensible and did not have the resources to resist a siege and resupplying it would require a fleet several times larger than Op Pedestal - so effectively in 1942 - 44 incapable of being resupplied.

Indeed while Malta had the strategic imperative for such a mission, HK did not.

Originally because of the above understanding no reinforcements were going to be sent - this quite sensible decision was reversed in Sept 1941 (possibly in part due to the offer of Canadian Reinforcements - and it is possible that if the Commonwealth leaders decided against reinforcing the Colony then no C-Force would have been sent anyway!).

Remove the 6 'Regular' Battalions to Malaya - that's 2 Brigade HQs and 6 Infantry Battalions (the 6th Middlesex gets re-rolled as an infantry unit possibly leaving some or all of its MGs behind) - obviously the Canadians would go directly to Singapore - hopefully the US Freighter 'San Jose' carrying C-Forces equipment would not get diverted to Manila.

2nd Battalion, The Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment)
1st Battalion, The Middlesex Regiment (Machine gun battalion)
5th Battalion, 7th Rajput Regiment
2nd Battalion, 14th Punjab Regiment
1st Battalion, The Winnipeg Grenadiers
The Royal Rifles of Canada (Rifle battalion)

While expanding the following units with locally raised troops and volunteers from both the 'White' community and 'stiffened' with volunteers from the regular units

Hong Kong Chinese Regiment (Infantry battalion)
Infantry Companies, Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps (HKVDC)

Remove the following Artillery Units 'Personnel' from HK leaving their equipment behind

8th Coast Regiment, Royal Artillery
12th Coast Regiment, Royal Artillery
5th Anti-Air Regiment, Royal Artillery
956th Defence Battery, Royal Artillery

While expanding the following units to take over their jobs - again with locally raised troops and again stiffened with Volunteers from the Royal Artillery Regiments

1st Hong Kong Regiment, Hong Kong and Singapore Royal Artillery
Artillery Batteries, Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps (HKVDC)

The RAF removes its 5 aircraft (2 Walrus and 3 Vilderbeest) and 120 or so personnel again to Malaya - as soon as it becomes apparent that Japanese forces are increasing on the mainland - probably via Manila and then Island hop around to Singapore.

The RN at the same time removes its last DD HMS Thracian and MTBs to Singapore with the MTBs to operate out of a North Eastern Malayan Port's where they might possibly make the opposed landings at Kota Bharu even more interesting for the Japanese

So- totally agree on the above 2 points you made

IMO the standing up of locally raised forces in HK would provide a Garrison large enough to Require Japan to take the place with force of arms as per OTL and to deny equipment, artillery and stores before the colony fell - while those regular units might make a difference in Malaya - in freeing up 'acclimatised' units to take part in the defence of Northern Malaya and even having increased strength for a Op Matador type operation.

Obviously they units taken from HK would need equipment delivered - particularly the 4 Royal Artillery units 'evacuated' from HK to be stood up as Field Artillery Regiments and at least one AAA Regiment - which fulfills your artillery concerns.

All it required was that decision taken in Mid 41 to include those forces from HK in the defence of Malaya and to not reinforce HK

I agree that the Malay Regiment should have been increased from a battalion to a Brigade - perhaps initially tasked with manning defenses around and to the North of Kuala Lumpur and more could have been made of Chinese Volunteers earlier.

 

[GauchoBadger]

So... what are the post-war consequences of a successful holdout of Malaysia?
We know that some of the indians who lived in the region formed the Indian National Army during the japanese occupation, and went on to assist in the Burma Campaign. How does the lack of the INA affect indian independence?
Assuming that a successful holdout of Malaysia results in the aforemented Burma Campaign being much more of a successful defense for the british forces, we could see a less damaged Yunnan Road. How does that affect the chinese theater for the rest of the war, and does it provide a better supply link from the british/americans for the Kuomintang in the later civil war?

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

I'm not sure we should be discussing post war, in my mind there's still a very big fight to hold Malaya/Singapore after the initial Japanese invasion has been held. The fall or not of Java and Sumatra have a huge impact on the ability of the British to resupply and reinforce Malaya. Imho this becomes the central focus on both Japan and the Allies, until the USN can start its island hopping campaign. I assume the Philippines still does fall, but does Guadalcanal still happen? Does MacArthur have role to play and where? And surely Singapore can expect the attention of the Kido Butai at some stage.