Britain goes 7.92x57mm SLEM post WW2. What are the NATO implications?

yulzari

7.92x57mm Mauser aka 8mm Mauser was a favourite possibility for Britain to adopt as a new rimless ammunition choice for small arms as WW2 was finishing. The Bren and Vickers could both be easily changed to this and the BESA and the ammunition were already in use throughout the war.

Most European NATO members either were using or would be happy to use the same standard. The round is capable of meeting the OTL USA performance numbers. Would it become the NATO standard? What about the French?

Please take the PoD as given. No matter how much you feel the urge to say an intermediate round would be better. 7.92x57mm Mauser it is.
 

stephen the barbarian

nato would still be founded, but would split into 3 rifle cartridge standards
uk/commonwealth -7.92x57
us -7.62x5[X]
french -7.65x54

most of europe would go with 7.92 in order to use captured/looted german guns, with both the g3 and fal being chambered in the cartridge
 

Peg Leg Pom

stephen the barbarian said:
nato would still be founded, but would split into 3 rifle cartridge standards
uk/commonwealth -7.92x57
us -7.62x5[X]
french -7.65x54

most of europe would go with 7.92 in order to use captured/looted german guns, with both the g3 and fal being chambered in the cartridge
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NATO other than UK/Commonwealth, France and possibly Belgium will opt for whatever round the US selects as the US will probably be paying for it. If the other major NATO players aren't interested in a new round the US may well opt to keep the 30-06.
 

stephen the barbarian

Peg Leg Pom said:
NATO other than UK/Commonwealth, France and possibly Belgium will opt for whatever round the US selects as the US will probably be paying for it.
Click to expand...
not necessarily, with uk/cw forces using 7.92 the us might be willing to back the idea,
between that and the surplus of arms available at the time European nation may likely find 7.92 to be they better option , at least in the short run



If the other major NATO players aren't interested in a new round the US may well opt to keep the 30-06.
Click to expand...
i left it somewhat open, but a shorter length case has enough benefits that i think its worth it
weight savings, the ability to convert surplus European arms, the use of the mg 42's feed system. etc.
 

Peg Leg Pom

stephen the barbarian said:
not necessarily, with uk/cw forces using 7.92 the us might be willing to back the idea,
between that and the surplus of arms available at the time European nation may likely find 7.92 to be they better option , at least in the short run
Click to expand...

It could depend on how early the British adopt the SLEM1. The Free Armies of the occupied nations were to all intents and purposes part of the British Army and equipped the same. If the SLEM is adopted by Britain during the war then the Free Forces will also be armed with it and it would be unlikely the post war armies that were built around the Free Forces would wish to change to a new rifle or cartridge.
 

yulzari

Peg Leg Pom said:
It could depend on how early the British adopt the SLEM1. The Free Armies of the occupied nations were to all intents and purposes part of the British Army and equipped the same. If the SLEM is adopted by Britain during the war then the Free Forces will also be armed with it and it would be unlikely the post war armies that were built around the Free Forces would wish to change to a new rifle or cartridge.
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The Belgian's own follow up FN49 Model began production in 1948 so there is no technical reason that the British SLEM would be any slower were the will to adopt it made real. The General Staff had chosen 7.92x57mm in 1944 whereas the Belgians had to get FN up and running from 1945 so a British made SLEM could be around in 1947. With the Bren already made in Canada in 7.92x57mm and the BESA in production from 1940 in the same there was the whole suite available. I would expect some cross feed between FN and Enfield so the model could develop through the OTL SLEM, FN49, FAL route rather than compete.
 

Peg Leg Pom

The SLEM in theory could have seen limited service in WWII if Enfield had put the Belgian designers to work as soon as they reached the UK. It wouldn't be the standard rifle but for specialists like the Commandos and Parachute regiment.
 
SealTheRealDeal

SealTheRealDeal

Peg Leg Pom said:
NATO other than UK/Commonwealth, France and possibly Belgium will opt for whatever round the US selects as the US will probably be paying for it.
Click to expand...
Didn't the German border guard use a lot of old Wehrmacht kit? If 7.92 is on the table when Germany remilitarizes the new German army may opt to return to it.
 

Peg Leg Pom

The West German Army deliberately distanced itself from its predecessors though and chose not to build on the foundation of the Border Guards who used mostly left over Wehrmacht equipment and uniforms.
 

Peg Leg Pom

By then 9mm was the NATO standard pistol round. Now id 7.92 is the de facto standard with the US and French using their own rounds the West Germans have a choice to make. They may chose the 7.92 but the US paid for the re arming of West Germany and may well insist on the US standards.
 

yulzari

There would be an AH version of OTL if the Germans asked to buy a licence to make their own SLEMs (or later versions). IOTL FN said no. They would make rifles and sell them to Germany but they would not sell a licence. They gave licences free to Britain and Canada as a thank you for liberating Belgium but they would not sell one to Germany. Hence the Germans looked elsewhere for a rifle design.
 
Shurik

Shurik

stephen the barbarian said:
nato would still be founded, but would split into 3 rifle cartridge standards
uk/commonwealth -7.92x57
us -7.62x5[X]
french -7.65x54

most of europe would go with 7.92 in order to use captured/looted german guns, with both the g3 and fal being chambered in the cartridge
Click to expand...
The FAL was already stretched to its design limits with the 7.62x51; already having up-sized from the the 7.92x33 Kurz, and later the .280.
I'm not sure it could take going all the way up to the 8mm Mauser without some complete over-haulage.
 

Peg Leg Pom

Shurik said:
The FAL was already stretched to its design limits with the 7.62x51; already having up-sized from the the 7.92x33 Kurz, and later the .280.
I'm not sure it could take going all the way up to the 8mm Mauser without some complete over-haulage.
Click to expand...
If SLEM is in standard service and 7.92 is retained as the rifle cartridge then the FAL won't be developed, they'd just adapt the SLEM to use 20 round detachable magazines rather than a 10 round mag loaded with stripper clips.
 
Shurik

Shurik

Peg Leg Pom said:
If SLEM is in standard service and 7.92 is retained as the rifle cartridge then the FAL won't be developed, they'd just adapt the SLEM to use 20 round detachable magazines rather than a 10 round mag loaded with stripper clips.
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It might be developed... But it would never get beyond the prototype stage.
I was merely commenting on the design's suitability for use with the 8mm mauser cartridge.
 

yulzari

Shurik said:
The FAL was already stretched to its design limits with the 7.62x51; already having up-sized from the the 7.92x33 Kurz, and later the .280.
I'm not sure it could take going all the way up to the 8mm Mauser without some complete over-haulage.
Click to expand...
The FAL was descended from the SLEM-1 via the FN-49 so they would introduce the FAL improvements on 7.92x57mm from it's beginnings.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Considering the work that was already being put into .270/.280 British, I think they would only adopt 7.92x57mm for their machine gunners, marksmen, and snipers, with the standard infantry rifle being EM-2 or FAL in .270/.280 British.
 

Cuirassier

Banned
Shurik said:
It might be developed... But it would never get beyond the prototype stage.
I was merely commenting on the design's suitability for use with the 8mm mauser cartridge.
Click to expand...
It uses a tilting bolt which is very strong. The Mauser round doesn't operate at higher pressures than .308 either.

In OTL the US made the T25. It showed itself capable of handling very high pressures.

The gas system of an FAL is very different from a T25 but there is no reason a short-stroke rifle in 8mm shouldn't work.
 
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