Britain gets Louisiana at end of Seven Year War

[Georgie Porgie]

In the swapping of territory at the end of the Seven Year War Britain got Florida from Spain and Spain got Louisiana from France.

What would have been the effects of Sapin keeping Florida and Britain getting Louisiana?

 

[katchen]

Part of the question we would need to answer first is: What will be the Western border of Louisiana on the Gulf of Mexico. Is it the Sabine River as OTTL negotiated by John Quincy Adams? Or will it be the Coloardo or the San Antonio or the Nueces or even the Rio Bravo (Rio Grande) so that the British will have frontage on the Gulf of Mexico to establish new colonies from New Orleans West? I think that the British could get Texas if they drove a hard bargain.
Very interesting if the border turns out to be the Rio Grande. Particularly since just the other side of the Rio Grande is a colony of the descendants of Jewish conversos who fear the Inquistion, still practice some Judaism on the sly and would dearly love to be free of Spain so that they can go back to practicing Judaism openly again. ("
Carvajal*,(Governor of the New Kingdom of Nuevo León, Admiral, and Captain General, Luis de Carvajal y la Cueva. He died in prison awaiting trial; his nephew Luis Carvajal was burned at the stake in 1596; also other members of this family were burned at the stake), " see www.weareanusim.com/anusim-last-names.html and www.cs.tau.ac.il/~nachum/sch/AnusimMexico.pdf and mexfiles.net/2007/03/18/mexicali-jews/

 

[IchBinDieKaiser]

Well, for one this could possibly butterfly away the American Revolution. One of the biggest complaints of the colonists leading up to the revolution was parliament not allowing settlement past the proclamation line of 1763. If the British take Louisiana this could possibly push the proclamation line westward to the Mississippi River. Parliament could declare Louisiana as an Indian Reserve, kind of like how Jefferson had originally planned. With Americans being allowed to settle out west, this could probably satisfy enough of them to either prevent the revolution, or at least isolate it to the northern colonies.

 

[Mackon]

I'd certainly love to read a TL based on that POD.

 

[Sharkani Rend]

Katchen,

Brit Louisiana map on Rio Grande?

 

[pternagy]

Well, for one this could possibly butterfly away the American Revolution. One of the biggest complaints of the colonists leading up to the revolution was parliament not allowing settlement past the proclamation line of 1763. If the British take Louisiana this could possibly push the proclamation line westward to the Mississippi River. Parliament could declare Louisiana as an Indian Reserve, kind of like how Jefferson had originally planned. With Americans being allowed to settle out west, this could probably satisfy enough of them to either prevent the revolution, or at least isolate it to the northern colonies.

I'm not so sure about that. While you may have a point that allowing the colonists to settle in Louisiana, wasn't the point of the Proclamation of 1763 to prevent conflicts with Indian tribes now under British protection? Those tribes would still be there and might still object to being forced out by American settlers moving west.

 

[Socrates]

I'm not so sure about that. While you may have a point that allowing the colonists to settle in Louisiana, wasn't the point of the Proclamation of 1763 to prevent conflicts with Indian tribes now under British protection? Those tribes would still be there and might still object to being forced out by American settlers moving west.

This was only one of the reasons. The others were that (a) the French fur trade around the Great Lakes and down the Mississippi was a money spinner, and settlers would interfere with this, potentially cutting off a lucrative source of revenue and (b) the British wanted to divert settlement so the whole coast was settled. That way no other European colonies could grab a foothold. These will obviously still hold also, but I can't see it having much effect on the Revolution, as the proclamation line issue was fairly quickly settled.

There are other ways it could affect the Revolution, however. Firstly, there will be a need for British troops to be stationed along the border with Spain. This solves the issue for HMG of "what do we do with all these spare troops?" that ended up with them being put in the thirteen colonies in our timeline, causing much animosity. It also solves it in a way that will be valued by the colonists, who will want the new land protected for English settlement and will know there's not enough population there yet for local militias to do it.

Secondly, the colonists will know there's no way they would be able to conquer the port of New Orleans in the revolution, which means if they get independence they'll be encircled by a hostile power and will also be damning a trade route that is vital for future expansion.

 

[Lord Grattan]

I'm not so sure about that. While you may have a point that allowing the colonists to settle in Louisiana, wasn't the point of the Proclamation of 1763 to prevent conflicts with Indian tribes now under British protection? Those tribes would still be there and might still object to being forced out by American settlers moving west.

The point was to prevent conflicts between the tribes of North America and British subjects (colonists) in North America (also, remember that w/o the OTL revolution, there will be no Americans around as we know them), by keeping them out of the Indians' lands until the British government got around to negotiating with the various tribes concerning settlement, trade, access, sovereignty and what-not and then opening the land up for H.M.'s subjects to develop and make flourish (or something like that).

 

[Georgie Porgie]

Part of the question we would need to answer first is: What will be the Western border of Louisiana on the Gulf of Mexico. Is it the Sabine River as OTTL negotiated by John Quincy Adams? Or will it be the Coloardo or the San Antonio or the Nueces or even the Rio Bravo (Rio Grande) so that the British will have frontage on the Gulf of Mexico to establish new colonies from New Orleans West? /

I can see the initial border being along the Adams-Onis Treaty line, the Brits after all were not good with vague boundaries (which is why they were always drawing lines on maps - Mason-Dixie, 49th Parallel etc.).
However if thinks are handled better by the British government post Seven Year War then I can see the British settlers in the 13 colonies taking land from Spain during the Napoleonic Wars.
Will try to work on a TL!

 

[Georgie Porgie]

George II lasts another Year

This POD is that George II doesn’t die of a heart attack in 1760, but rather a year later in 1761. This means that Britain’s support for Prussia lasts until after the death of Elizabeth of Russia. In a second POD the British do follow Pitt’s strategy of a pre-emptive strike against Spain and take the Plate Fleet as it sailed from New Spain to Cadiz. This netted the British about 9 million peso as the Government didn’t have to pay prize money to the Naval ships that took the Spanish Galleons did so at a time when Britain and Spain were not officially at war.

The Seven Year War will run its course as per OTL (except that Spain enters the War six months earlier in September 1761). Therefore the Spanish attack on Portugal is stymied and Spain will lose Havana and Manila to the British. The Treaty of Fontainebleau is signed and France hands the Louisiana Territory to its Spanish ally.

The Treaty of Paris is signed in 1763 but has Prussia as a signatory, as is Austria (and whoever else signed the treaty in OTL). This means the Treaty of Hubertusburg didn’t occur.

Spain is not a signatory however and chooses to continue with the war (now the Anglo-Spanish War of 1763) as the British are demanding Florida and Louisiana. Spain learns of the fall of Manila and that British and Hanoverian forces are moving to Florida and New Orleans (Britain is not in as dire financial straits as in OTL due to the money from the Plate Fleet – Newcastle had used this money to pay off some of the National Debt). In addition the Royal Navy is ready to blockade the Spanish ports on the Atlantic and Mediterranean. Without a shot being fired Spain capitulates as it has no allies and no fleet it can’t fight the British in America without endangering the rest of New Spain.

The Bute Ministry has taken over from the Newcastle / Pitt Ministry and with Treaty of Madrid (a codicil of the Treaty of Paris) ends the war.

As per OTL the outcome of the war is:
1) France loses all it colonies in North America and the Caribbean except Guadeloupe and Martinique.
2) Spain loses the Florida territories as negotiated in the Treaty of Paris.
3) Spain loses the Louisiana territories gained from France. Britain and Spain agree to draw up a boundary between the Spanish New Mexico and the British territories in America (this will follow the line of the now-defunct 1819 Adams-Onis Treaty). The final boundary is agreed in 1765 after a joint British – Spanish expedition. This is led by a newly promoted Colonel George Washington.
4) Spain will pay Britain £4 million in compensation for the return of Manila. Unlike OTL this is actually paid.

The Year is now 1763 and the Earl of Bute sends William Pitt to the American Colonies (mainly to get him out of his hair, or should that be wig (or Whig!)) as Secretary of State for the Americas. He is tasked with reconciling all the new territories into the British Empire.

 

[Lord Grattan]

This POD is ... snip ... the new territories into the British Empire.

Interesting scenario GP. May I tuck this seed away for future "enhancement and planting"?