Break up France from 1790ish to 1815.

[Alt History Buff]

All,

I'm looking for a way to break up France from the start of the French Revolution to after the Napoleonic Wars.

I've tried an Occitan language/regional method on a previous post (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/howthread.php?t=345369) but this was widely rejected as non-feasible given a lack of regional identity, especially in Occitania.


What other methods were possible to accomplish this?

Was there ever a chance that the victorious powers (GB, Prussia, Austria, Russia, Spain) may try to carve up France in order to prevent the French colosus from rising again?

Would this even be possible?

Could the revolution be allowed to survive in some areas but others (northwest or south) remain loyalist to the Bourbons?

Was there ever a chance of France splintering even without foreign intervention or was the revolution by definition a central political matter?

Would any of the Royal Houses of Europe allow even a partial revolutionary state to exist?

Any chance they could reach a state of peace between each other (I'm leaning towards no but would like ot hear opinions)?

Could the victorious allies attempt to restrict French power / punish the French for 25 years of war by removing Bretagne, Corsica, Marseille and/or Alsace-Lorraine from France?

Feel free to run with this.

 

[Imladrik]

Nop. You have several problems :

1. Every part of the countries you want tu cut from France consider itself French, except maybe Corsica and even for Corsica it's debatable.
2. Most of it would be hard to hold or to defend by a foreign power except Alsace-Moselle (When Corsica was sold to the French by the Genoese, the Genoese had no control over Corsica. Maybe Sardinia-Piemont can hold it, but it would be a thorn in it's side)
3. The four powers where at each other throat during the Vienna Conference, with no one wanting to give another power an advantage. No one would want to give Prussia another territory with Alsace-Moselle (it has already grown to much to the Austrian tastes), giving Corsica to the Sardinians might upset the balance of powers in Italy which was a big no no, separating Brittany would make it a British client state, which was also against the interest of others. Having a non-impotent France was a good thing for everyone (except for Prussia), because it could be a powerfull ally in a future war.
4. French geography basically make the country impossible to break up for long. The side controlling the north and the Parisian region would be too powerful due to it's population and wealth compared to the province.

 

[Derek Pullem]

All,

I'm looking for a way to break up France from the start of the French Revolution to after the Napoleonic Wars.

I've tried an Occitan language/regional method on a previous post (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/howthread.php?t=345369) but this was widely rejected as non-feasible given a lack of regional identity, especially in Occitania.


What other methods were possible to accomplish this?

Was there ever a chance that the victorious powers (GB, Prussia, Austria, Russia, Spain) may try to carve up France in order to prevent the French colosus from rising again?

Would this even be possible?

Could the revolution be allowed to survive in some areas but others (northwest or south) remain loyalist to the Bourbons?

Was there ever a chance of France splintering even without foreign intervention or was the revolution by definition a central political matter?

Would any of the Royal Houses of Europe allow even a partial revolutionary state to exist?

Any chance they could reach a state of peace between each other (I'm leaning towards no but would like ot hear opinions)?

Could the victorious allies attempt to restrict French power / punish the French for 25 years of war by removing Bretagne, Corsica, Marseille and/or Alsace-Lorraine from France?

Feel free to run with this.

Trouble is that the official line in most of the European powers at that time was that Napoleon / the revolution must be defeated and the rightful King returned to power.

Which kind of removes the possibility of breaking up the France you have committed to returning to the King.

The only way I could see this happening was if there was a populist Monarch who could divert the French Revolution sufficiently for the Legislative Assembly to remain in power i.e. Louis XVI actually does what he said he would instead of plotting to overthrow the Assembly. Then a subsequent war could be France and the King versus Europe. So long as the King was there when the war began (a revolution / Napoleon could come after) then a partial break up of France could be considered but its still highly unlikely.

 

[Gloss]

Nop. You have several problems :

1. Every part of the countries you want tu cut from France consider itself French, except maybe Corsica and even for Corsica it's debatable.
2. Most of it would be hard to hold or to defend by a foreign power except Alsace-Moselle (When Corsica was sold to the French by the Genoese, the Genoese had no control over Corsica. Maybe Sardinia-Piemont can hold it, but it would be a thorn in it's side)
3. The four powers where at each other throat during the Vienna Conference, with no one wanting to give another power an advantage. No one would want to give Prussia another territory with Alsace-Moselle (it has already grown to much to the Austrian tastes), giving Corsica to the Sardinians might upset the balance of powers in Italy which was a big no no, separating Brittany would make it a British client state, which was also against the interest of others. Having a non-impotent France was a good thing for everyone (except for Prussia), because it could be a powerfull ally in a future war.
4. French geography basically make the country impossible to break up for long. The side controlling the north and the Parisian region would be too powerful due to it's population and wealth compared to the province.

1 You are both right and wrong: most of the middle and upper class was french culturally and linguistically but the peasants weren´t until WW1. Corsica was only for 39 years and is relatively isolated from Paris and is located between territories of the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont, is not so unlikely to have this little island under another country. Maybe the Powers would have tried to humiliate Napoleon by giving the island to Piedmont or another country.
2 Makes sense but I don´t think that this would stop somebody for at least trying. Corsican secessionism was a issue even for France and Piedmont-Sardinia had the resources to control the island unlikely Genoa.
3 Prussian Alsace is impossible but an independent one would not upset the balance. Corsica would not upset the balance of anything. Bretagne like you said was unlikely to be accepted from both France and other countries. I don´t think that somebody really expected to see a united Germany under Prussia and/or saw them as a threat expect Austria that wasn´t actually the best friend of France.
4 Right but it is not the reason why France wasn´t divided after the Napoleonic War. In a different situation this would be not an issue during the negotiation, I don´t mean that this new country would be easy to defend or to control but a foreign power wouldn´t know that.

The main issue is that the war was about stopping the revolution and later Napoleon not against France itself so is unlikely to see a break up of this nation, anyway we could see some land concession like Corsica to Piedmont, Perpignan to Spain and an Alsace duchy/whatever if Talleyrand failed to exlude French territory during the Congress of Vienna.

 

[Matteo]

You are wrong too in the fact that your arguments don't have the same weight.

Of course, the french national identity was still on a building process. But it was already advanced to such a point that it no longer was breakable except marginally in the peripheral provinces.

If revolutionary France was the first to edict the concept of nation as the new foundation of sovereignty, it is because the idea had matured in the public opinion all along the 18th century. The public opinion considered itself as a french nation, though of course this nation was not monolithic and though there also were provincial identities. But both identities were complementary, not opposite.

So 1789-1815 is way too late to break-up France.

 

[Georgie Porgie]

The best I can come up with is just nibbling round the edges.

All the allies had troops in Paris, it may be that something like what happened to Berlin after WWII could (ok streaching here) come about.

The only other thing that I could think of are those areas which really suffered under the pre-Napoleon regimes may want independance from a central authority.

 

[walmart]

You could have something like the waring states in China, where everybody try to take power

 

[Matteo]

To have waring States, you firstly need ... States, local political entities.

There were no such things in France in 1789. Vendée and the region of chouannerie were not political entities with a specific identity. The key of the conflict was political and social.

This was a real civil war.