Breach loaded rifles adopted earlier

[takerma]

What do you think the chances are that either Patrick Ferguson designed breach loading rifle or John Hancock Hall rifle gets adopted when introduced?

I am guessing that Ferguson's design would mostly be used for specialized units during Napoleonic wars, they are just too expensive and hard to make.

What about Hall?

Much faster rate of fire and accuracy and both of these can be fired and reloaded prone which would have massive effect on tactics of the time.

 

[Saphroneth]

I have been informed, though cannot find a reference, that there was a debate in the House of Commons in the 1860 timeframe about replacing the army's rifles with breechloading rifles.
Mainly not taken up due to cost.

 

[robcraufurd]

I have been informed, though cannot find a reference, that there was a debate in the House of Commons in the 1860 timeframe about replacing the army's rifles with breechloading rifles.
Mainly not taken up due to cost.

They might have got the wrong decade, though it was efficiency rather than cost that spelled the end of the earlier experiment.

"In the year 1847 the attention of the authorities at the Ordnance Department and at the Horse Guards had been directed to the improvement of our arms, and his noble Friend the late head of the Ordnance Department, and the noble Duke the Commander-in-Chief, suggested the appointment of a Committee, consisting of the most competent officers, for the purpose of inquiring into the matter, and receiving any proposals that might be made for the improvement of the muskets placed in the hands of our soldiers. That Committee had met at various periods since the year 1847. They had made trials of several descriptions of muskets which loaded at the breech, produced by seven different makers. But all those muskets had failed. They could no longer be worked after they had been tried for twenty rounds, in consequence of an escape of gas, or of some derangement in the machinery; and yet they had been made of the very best materials." (General Anson, HC Deb 26 March 1852 vol 120 c183)

 

[Saphroneth]

They might have got the wrong decade, though it was efficiency rather than cost that spelled the end of the earlier experiment.

"In the year 1847 the attention of the authorities at the Ordnance Department and at the Horse Guards had been directed to the improvement of our arms, and his noble Friend the late head of the Ordnance Department, and the noble Duke the Commander-in-Chief, suggested the appointment of a Committee, consisting of the most competent officers, for the purpose of inquiring into the matter, and receiving any proposals that might be made for the improvement of the muskets placed in the hands of our soldiers. That Committee had met at various periods since the year 1847. They had made trials of several descriptions of muskets which loaded at the breech, produced by seven different makers. But all those muskets had failed. They could no longer be worked after they had been tried for twenty rounds, in consequence of an escape of gas, or of some derangement in the machinery; and yet they had been made of the very best materials." (General Anson, HC Deb 26 March 1852 vol 120 c183)

Here's the bugger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider–Enfield
The Snider was designed in 1860, though production did not start until 1866

 

[robcraufurd]

The Snider was designed in 1860, though production did not start until 1866

The quotation you might be thinking of is the Marquess of Hartington as under-secretary of war in 1863, who states:

"Considering, however, that they were at that moment in possession of a weapon which the Ordnance Committee themselves declared to be superior to any possessed by other countries, it would obviously not be right for the Government to enter into a heavy expenditure, such as would be required in order suddenly to substitute another instrument for the Enfield as the rifle of the army, except on the fullest consideration and after the most complete practical experience...The question of cost was also one of considerable importance. On the whole, then, the Government did not feel themselves justified in ordering breech-loaders to be issued to the troops for actual service; but, at the same time, the merits of the arm invented by Mr. Westley Richards were such as entitled it to a further practical trial, and the Government had consequently determined to place 2,000 in the hands of men scattered over all parts of the world, in order that the weapon might be thoroughly tested." (HC Deb 25 June 1863 vol 171 cc1466-7)

However, I didn't think you meant this quote because he doesn't state they're not taking it up on grounds of cost, just that they're making sure they have the right gun before they go ahead. The government order 20,000 more Westley-Richards in autumn 1864, and start the trials which eventually produce the Snider in January 1865.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Breechloading rifles require precision machinery, and probably completely interchangeable parts.

The US had an early breechloader (the Hall rifle), but abandoned it before the Civil War. I suspect that says something.

Breechloaders also work best with brass cartridges, which were only becoming plausible about the time of the Civil War.

So. I imagine you could get widespread use of breechloaders a decade or so earlier, but they'd be expensive.

 

[takerma]

Breechloading rifles require precision machinery, and probably completely interchangeable parts.

The US had an early breechloader (the Hall rifle), but abandoned it before the Civil War. I suspect that says something.

Breechloaders also work best with brass cartridges, which were only becoming plausible about the time of the Civil War.

So. I imagine you could get widespread use of breechloaders a decade or so earlier, but they'd be expensive.

I think maybe part of abandoning of Hall rifle was that nobody else was using them, they were expensive and US was not exactly in need of a superior weapon.

POD would be Ferguson not getting shot in the elbow and getting killed later but having time to improve the design. He managed already to get a testing unit going with 100 of them, it would be logical to say that he had enough connections to continue pushing it and having it improved.

Idea is that in Napoleonic wars this will still be a small special unit(perhaps rifles company in British army) weapon. However relatively large adoption of design would help Hall in pushing adoption of his design.

I am gona do more research on the technical feasibility of the Ferguson design being improved. There are quite a few replicas, I am wondering just how hard it is to make it into a reliable front unit design.

 

[gladius]

I think maybe part of abandoning of Hall rifle was that nobody else was using them, they were expensive and US was not exactly in need of a superior weapon.

POD would be Ferguson not getting shot in the elbow and getting killed later but having time to improve the design. He managed already to get a testing unit going with 100 of them, it would be logical to say that he had enough connections to continue pushing it and having it improved.

Idea is that in Napoleonic wars this will still be a small special unit(perhaps rifles company in British army) weapon. However relatively large adoption of design would help Hall in pushing adoption of his design.

I am gona do more research on the technical feasibility of the Ferguson design being improved. There are quite a few replicas, I am wondering just how hard it is to make it into a reliable front unit design.

Interestingly, the POD you suggest was the canon POD for the Draka series: Fergusons breech loader led to the Revolution lasting longer, getting more brutal, and led to the mass exodus of British loyalists following the American victory. These exiles settled in Cape Town ... and things got weird.

 

[Saphroneth]

I am led to understand that the main issue with a screw-thread breechloader is getting the screw-thread design right. Could you have a multi-started interrupted screw design adopted, similar to what later artillery used?
(Have Ferguson build about two dozen different screw thread designs, to see which works best?)

 

[RodentRevolution]

I am led to understand that the main issue with a screw-thread breechloader is getting the screw-thread design right. Could you have a multi-started interrupted screw design adopted, similar to what later artillery used?
(Have Ferguson build about two dozen different screw thread designs, to see which works best?)

Do you mean the interrupted screw? That really only works with the invention of the de Bange obturator, besides it is a bit overkill for infantry weapon pressures, the turn bolt Dreyse (edit; actually I think Dreyse used a straight pull) weapon was actually in production in the 1830's it just took a long time to outfit the Prussian Army due to the use of artisan methods of production.

The Ferguson screw worked fine enough, it was the stock that was tricky and prone to breaking, a two part wooden stock with a metal receiver might well have worked but would have been perhaps too much of a leap of imagination.

The Hall falls down on muzzle velocity as too much gas escaped at the breech, so it had about a third of the penetration of then equivalent rifles.

 

[bugwar]

Sharps?

Breechloading rifles require precision machinery, and probably completely interchangeable parts.

The US had an early breechloader (the Hall rifle), but abandoned it before the Civil War. I suspect that says something.

Breechloaders also work best with brass cartridges, which were only becoming plausible about the time of the Civil War.

So. I imagine you could get widespread use of breechloaders a decade or so earlier, but they'd be expensive.

Would the Sharps rifle be adequate for your purposes?

From the article:
Sharps' initial rifle was patented September 12, 1848[1] and manufactured by A. S. Nippes at Mill Creek, (Philadelphia) Pennsylvania, in 1850.[2]
The second model used the Maynard tape primer, and surviving examples are marked Edward Maynard - Patentee 1845.
In 1851 the second model was brought to the Robbins & Lawrence Company of Windsor, Vermont where the Model 1851 was developed for mass production.
Rollin White of the R&L Co. invented the knife-edge breech block and self-cocking device for the "box-lock" Model 1851.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharps_rifle#Sharps_military_rifles_and_carbines