Ok I accept that the Germans may be able to hide such a base but still the logistics will be absolute hell. Positioning it on "inland ice" eliminates the use of submarines to supply it so you have to fly everything in which for a weather station may be possible but for an airbase is going to be bloody difficult.
Bombers over New York
- Thread starter Redbeard
- Start date
Well, the Luftwaffe was studying the Messerschmitt Me 264, which had the range to reach NY. On December 23, 1942, the Me 264 V1 was ready for its first test flight. There was also the Focke-Wulf Ta 400, but nothing came out of this.
http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html
http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwta400.html
Summing up, it could be attempted, but it would be only wasting planes and crews
http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html
http://www.luft46.com/fw/fwta400.html
Summing up, it could be attempted, but it would be only wasting planes and crews
Bill Cameron
Banned
Redbeard wrote:
"Regarding Greenland "allied control" was in a very loose sense of the term. The Germans actually had weatherships and stations up there through most of the war, and theoretically you could have a refuelling base on the inland ice without anybody finding out for years."
Mr. Redbeard,
Nonsense. A weather party consisting of a few men, two radios, a box of instruments, some skis, rations, and rifles for hunting is nothing compared to an airbase. Neither is a trawler skulking among the ice flows.
How much avgas will 'only' 20 bombers need? How will it be stored? Who will pump it? How will you get it there? How will you bring in the required ground base personnel? How will you house them? Feed them? Keep them warm? Now figure out all the same if you're planning on rearming your bombers there, or repairing them there, or keeping a runway in shape or handling a thousand other tasks.
You aren't going to supply all that by submarine, or by sneaking trawlers, or even by air. Look at the trouble we had keeping B-29s supplied over the 'Hump', USAAF had to use the bombers themselves to supplement the normal cargo-carrying Dakotas.
Don'y forget too that Greenland was regularly overflown by aircraft heading for England. Aircraft on a Great Circle route to the UK will be flying pretty much the same route your bombers will be taking to NYC, Boston, Washington, etc.
Milchcows and seaplanes are your only real bet and then only for a few raids. Bletchley broke Enigma well before '42 and read Doenitz's traffic despite the 4th rotor thanks to the 3-rotor weather & position reports the u-boats sent. Huuf-Duff will make the job even easier, especially considering that the seaplanes and subs will need to radio each other to setup their meetings. The USN purposely hunted down the milchcows in late '43 once the assets could be spared. If NYC were bombed, you'd see those assets freed up much sooner and the milchcows sunk much earlier than in the OTL.
About all that would come of the whole affair would be New Yorkers telling Londoners "We got bombed too" and Londoners rolling their eyes.
Bill
"Regarding Greenland "allied control" was in a very loose sense of the term. The Germans actually had weatherships and stations up there through most of the war, and theoretically you could have a refuelling base on the inland ice without anybody finding out for years."
Mr. Redbeard,
Nonsense. A weather party consisting of a few men, two radios, a box of instruments, some skis, rations, and rifles for hunting is nothing compared to an airbase. Neither is a trawler skulking among the ice flows.
How much avgas will 'only' 20 bombers need? How will it be stored? Who will pump it? How will you get it there? How will you bring in the required ground base personnel? How will you house them? Feed them? Keep them warm? Now figure out all the same if you're planning on rearming your bombers there, or repairing them there, or keeping a runway in shape or handling a thousand other tasks.
You aren't going to supply all that by submarine, or by sneaking trawlers, or even by air. Look at the trouble we had keeping B-29s supplied over the 'Hump', USAAF had to use the bombers themselves to supplement the normal cargo-carrying Dakotas.
Don'y forget too that Greenland was regularly overflown by aircraft heading for England. Aircraft on a Great Circle route to the UK will be flying pretty much the same route your bombers will be taking to NYC, Boston, Washington, etc.
Milchcows and seaplanes are your only real bet and then only for a few raids. Bletchley broke Enigma well before '42 and read Doenitz's traffic despite the 4th rotor thanks to the 3-rotor weather & position reports the u-boats sent. Huuf-Duff will make the job even easier, especially considering that the seaplanes and subs will need to radio each other to setup their meetings. The USN purposely hunted down the milchcows in late '43 once the assets could be spared. If NYC were bombed, you'd see those assets freed up much sooner and the milchcows sunk much earlier than in the OTL.
About all that would come of the whole affair would be New Yorkers telling Londoners "We got bombed too" and Londoners rolling their eyes.
Bill
Redbeard
Banned
Bill Cameron said:
Bill
Before you say "nonsense" to me or anyone else, go back and actually read my posts. Then you may see, that I have no way claimed a clandestine German base on Greenland to be a picnic, on the contray, but the idea is interesting and not far away in realism from so many other megalomaniac German scemes.
It is OK not to spend the time reading all the posts in a thread, but then you also have to walk more carefully.
Regards
Steffen Redberad
Just a question. How would the base at Greenland would be supplied? If the UK is still at war, I think that the RN has the control over the sealanes. The idea is interesting, but also problematic, from a logistical point of view. Sorry if I'm a bit stubborn. 
I think the key difference is between a "base", which implies a permanent or semi-permanent logistical establishment and an ad hoc positioning of assets for a one-time strike. I don't believe Germany could have established a real "base" in Greenland to support a sustained bombing campaign, but I don't think that is what Redbeard was saying. On the other hand, the temporary prepositioning of milchcows and tenders to support a small force of floatplanes or flying boats for a one-time strike at key targets along the US and Canadian eastern seaboard (proabably in one-way sorties) would be a perfectly possible - if risky - proposition.
The other question is what success would this have and what the US response would be. Personally, I suspect the success would probably be limited. I presume (but don't know for sure) that the eastern aerial approaches to North America were covered by at least some radar and interceptor coverage, especially in the 1941-43 period. It is also important to remember that the allies believed that the carrier "Graf Zeppelin" had been completed and they also know the Germans had long-range transport planes capable of reaching North American on one way missions from France or Spain. Air raid drills and blackouts were also common in the first few years. Thus the US air defense may have been more prepared than we imagine. If intercepted, He-115s, Bv138s, or Bv-222s wouldn't stand a chance. It would make a great Hollywood movie though, especially if you mixed in the SS and maybe nerve gas bombs or Gestapo agents to make the Germans seem evil and not just plain heroic!
If the strikes were successful, however, I do not agree with some posters this would make the USA more resolved to "punish" Germany later. As discussed above, such attacks were basically expected by both the US people and Government, and the damage and loss of life they would have caused is probaly minimal. Allied strategy (other than expending more naval and air assets to clean out Greenland) would be unchanged.
The other question is what success would this have and what the US response would be. Personally, I suspect the success would probably be limited. I presume (but don't know for sure) that the eastern aerial approaches to North America were covered by at least some radar and interceptor coverage, especially in the 1941-43 period. It is also important to remember that the allies believed that the carrier "Graf Zeppelin" had been completed and they also know the Germans had long-range transport planes capable of reaching North American on one way missions from France or Spain. Air raid drills and blackouts were also common in the first few years. Thus the US air defense may have been more prepared than we imagine. If intercepted, He-115s, Bv138s, or Bv-222s wouldn't stand a chance. It would make a great Hollywood movie though, especially if you mixed in the SS and maybe nerve gas bombs or Gestapo agents to make the Germans seem evil and not just plain heroic!
If the strikes were successful, however, I do not agree with some posters this would make the USA more resolved to "punish" Germany later. As discussed above, such attacks were basically expected by both the US people and Government, and the damage and loss of life they would have caused is probaly minimal. Allied strategy (other than expending more naval and air assets to clean out Greenland) would be unchanged.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Mr. Redbeard,
Mea culpa. Blame it on late night posting due to insomnia.
Despite my intentions, I've managed to anger Valamyr, Robert Sullivan, and you in less than 48 hours. Great record huh?
Perhaps I shouldn't use the board as a sleep aid....
Bill
Mea culpa. Blame it on late night posting due to insomnia.
Despite my intentions, I've managed to anger Valamyr, Robert Sullivan, and you in less than 48 hours. Great record huh?
Perhaps I shouldn't use the board as a sleep aid....
Bill
Redbeard
Banned
Bill Cameron said:Mr. Redbeard,
Mea culpa. Blame it on late night posting due to insomnia.
Despite my intentions, I've managed to anger Valamyr, Robert Sullivan, and you in less than 48 hours. Great record huh?
Perhaps I shouldn't use the board as a sleep aid....
Bill
Hi Bill
I'm happy to share board with you, but here on the net, where we can't be aided by looking at each other as we talk, like humans have for countless generations, we must all be very careful how we talk to each other. I've sometimes crossed the limit myself, and been recalled.
Regards and hope you have found some good sleep
Steffen Redbeard
Bill Cameron
Banned
Steffan,
Thanks for pulling on the reins. I certainly needed it!
Here's a nice twist for your 'Bombers over NYC' idea; What if the US response to the seaplane/milchcow bombing campaign tipped the Germans off to the fact that Engima was compromised?
In the OTL, the Allies took great pains to 'sanitize' Engima decrypts in th hope that Germany would never realize that thier mail was being read. FWIU, Enigma's key flaw was that no symbol was ever encrypted as itself. What if, in their attempts to stop the night-time nuisance raids on US cities, the Americans failed to 'sanitize' the Enigma decrypts they were using o hunt down milchcows and seaplanes and the Germans finally took a real look at the system they thought was perfect?
Bill
Thanks for pulling on the reins. I certainly needed it!
Here's a nice twist for your 'Bombers over NYC' idea; What if the US response to the seaplane/milchcow bombing campaign tipped the Germans off to the fact that Engima was compromised?
In the OTL, the Allies took great pains to 'sanitize' Engima decrypts in th hope that Germany would never realize that thier mail was being read. FWIU, Enigma's key flaw was that no symbol was ever encrypted as itself. What if, in their attempts to stop the night-time nuisance raids on US cities, the Americans failed to 'sanitize' the Enigma decrypts they were using o hunt down milchcows and seaplanes and the Germans finally took a real look at the system they thought was perfect?
Bill
I suppose the real phrase would be "by the British" instead of the Allies. I'm under the impression that the Brits handed out Enigma decrypts when needed and that the US did not have direct access or am I wrong here?Bill Cameron said:
Nonetheless, Bill, you're idea is still valid as an improbable interception of such a suprise raid might make the Germans look more closely at their codes and how they handle communication in general!
Under alle circumstances I'll find it very hard to believe a sustanied bombing campaing against the US can be orchestrated by the Luftwaffe and the Kriegmarine. A seaborn raid or a single, carefully planned one from Greenland (slowly build up supplies and clear out an area - use danes or norwegians as there must be someone with knowledge of Greenland who is either a Nazi or mercenary enough to cooperate in such an endavour, The use of danes and norwegians might not tip off the Americans or the hunters up there, so work gets done in secrecy) is possible I think, but the cost would be somewhat counterproductrive, I'd say.
How the americans might react? Hmm, with panic at first, then with anger? The usual way americans react when pissed on, I suppose!
Regards and all!
- B.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Mr.Bluenote wrote: "I suppose the real phrase would be "by the British" instead of the Allies. I'm under the impression that the Brits handed out Enigma decrypts when needed and that the US did not have direct access or am I wrong here?"
Mr. Bluenote,
I don't think so, but IIRC, it will depend on when during the war the decrypt is available.
Prior to early '43 Enigma was still pretty much an all-British show. Then the US 'negotiated' or 'earned' access and the whole system changed. Bletchley had been using a few handmade 'bombes'; the primitive electronic computers used to check various 'cribs' against intercepted German encryptions I believe the number of 'bombes' in use was less than six! The US was finally given the neccessary blueprints and contracted the Singer Sewing Machine company to build more - more on the order of hundreds more.
After this, Britain plucks the encrypted messages out of the ether and cables them to the US where all the US 'bombes' grind out a decrypt lickety-split. Bletchley still did most of the R&D, identifying different codes and so forth, but the US bombes did all the heavy lifting.
The US finally convinced the Brits to allow them to use Enigma decrypts to hunt down the milchcows. This was after the Brits had used Enigma decrypts to hunts the Italian tankers Rommel needed so desperately. Maybe it was a 'You get to use one, we get to use one' deal?
Enigma info was also provided to the Soviets but in such a round about manner as to make your head spin. Stalin was enough of a paranoid *sshole to not even trust his own wife. The Brits had to invent a communist agent in Switzerland and a ficticious network she controlled in order to pass Enigma info to the USSR! That's right, 'Lucy' was really British Intelligence and most of the 'Red Orchestra' was make believe! It was the only way that rat bastard Stalin would believe the info being sent him.
"Nonetheless, Bill, you're idea is still valid as an improbable interception of such a suprise raid might make the Germans look more closely at their codes and how they handle communication in general!"
It would have been a blow. The Brits were reading nearly everything because the Germans were using the Enigma system for everything and not just military work, stuff like police reports, Gestapo work, diplomatic traffic, everything. Enigma was used so often and in so many places that one wonders if the Germans could have switched to another system in anything like a short period of time. If they wanted to retain the system until another could be devised, just rewiring the machines so that a character could be encrypted as itself; Enigma's major flaw IIRC, would have hurt.
Does anyone know how much of the Japanese Purple/Magic decrypts the US shared with the Brits?
Bill
P.S. Because Enigma decrypts took time to create even after the US bombes came on line, the unsung Huff-Duff had much more to do with sinking u-boats than Enigma did.
Mr. Bluenote,
I don't think so, but IIRC, it will depend on when during the war the decrypt is available.
Prior to early '43 Enigma was still pretty much an all-British show. Then the US 'negotiated' or 'earned' access and the whole system changed. Bletchley had been using a few handmade 'bombes'; the primitive electronic computers used to check various 'cribs' against intercepted German encryptions I believe the number of 'bombes' in use was less than six! The US was finally given the neccessary blueprints and contracted the Singer Sewing Machine company to build more - more on the order of hundreds more.
After this, Britain plucks the encrypted messages out of the ether and cables them to the US where all the US 'bombes' grind out a decrypt lickety-split. Bletchley still did most of the R&D, identifying different codes and so forth, but the US bombes did all the heavy lifting.
The US finally convinced the Brits to allow them to use Enigma decrypts to hunt down the milchcows. This was after the Brits had used Enigma decrypts to hunts the Italian tankers Rommel needed so desperately. Maybe it was a 'You get to use one, we get to use one' deal?
Enigma info was also provided to the Soviets but in such a round about manner as to make your head spin. Stalin was enough of a paranoid *sshole to not even trust his own wife. The Brits had to invent a communist agent in Switzerland and a ficticious network she controlled in order to pass Enigma info to the USSR! That's right, 'Lucy' was really British Intelligence and most of the 'Red Orchestra' was make believe! It was the only way that rat bastard Stalin would believe the info being sent him.
"Nonetheless, Bill, you're idea is still valid as an improbable interception of such a suprise raid might make the Germans look more closely at their codes and how they handle communication in general!"
It would have been a blow. The Brits were reading nearly everything because the Germans were using the Enigma system for everything and not just military work, stuff like police reports, Gestapo work, diplomatic traffic, everything. Enigma was used so often and in so many places that one wonders if the Germans could have switched to another system in anything like a short period of time. If they wanted to retain the system until another could be devised, just rewiring the machines so that a character could be encrypted as itself; Enigma's major flaw IIRC, would have hurt.
Does anyone know how much of the Japanese Purple/Magic decrypts the US shared with the Brits?
Bill
P.S. Because Enigma decrypts took time to create even after the US bombes came on line, the unsung Huff-Duff had much more to do with sinking u-boats than Enigma did.
Thanks for your explanation, Bill - a very informative post indeed! I actually believed that the Brits kept the Enigma Secret, so to speak, to themselves. The good thing about this site is that you sometimes learn something new!Bill Cameron said:
I don't think that the Germans need to change the whole Enigma set-up as such, just change the codes either more often, which of course is a bit impractical, or be very carefull not to give the Brits something from which they can decifre the code. If I'm not mistaken, the Brits used weather reports or something to crack the codes? Hmm, been awhile since I read anything related to Enigma - anyway, the Brits got an opening and used it to crack the codes, right? So basically, I suppose that the German Enigma system worked rather good, they just got un-Germanly sloppy with the codes somehow...
Interesting question about the Japanese codes btw; did the US give the Brits access or did they parcel the information out on a need to know or we-think-you-ought-to-know-this-now basis?
Regards and all!
- Mr.B.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Mr.Bluenote wrote: T"hanks for your explanation, Bill - a very informative post indeed!"
Mr. Bluenote,
You're very welcome but, remember, that was all from memory and is therefore suspect. Check out the materials yourself, it's an interesting read.
"If I'm not mistaken, the Brits used weather reports or something to crack the codes?"
Yes, specifically to crack the u-boat messages. Enigma normally used 3 rotors but Doenitz insisted on a fourth for his subs' equipment. That made the u-boat messages far more harder to decrypt. Oddly enough, the routine weather messages the u-boats sent were encrypted on a 4 rotor machine using only 3 rotors! It seems weather messages used 3 rotors no matter what machine you were using! That allowed the Brits to crack the weather traffic and then use the weather 'crib' to crack the four rotor messages. Having three of the 4 rotor settings already in hand from the weather report just made cracking the u-boat messages that much easier!
Aside from the 3-rotor/4-rotor mess, Enigma's real flaw was that it never encoded a symbol as itself. Therefore an 'a' never came out as another 'a'. That is what really allowed the Brits to crack it. With that flaw in hand, it was then a mere matter of checking your cribs, thousands of cribs yes, but easy once you had even primitive computers.
Bill
Mr. Bluenote,
You're very welcome but, remember, that was all from memory and is therefore suspect. Check out the materials yourself, it's an interesting read.
"If I'm not mistaken, the Brits used weather reports or something to crack the codes?"
Yes, specifically to crack the u-boat messages. Enigma normally used 3 rotors but Doenitz insisted on a fourth for his subs' equipment. That made the u-boat messages far more harder to decrypt. Oddly enough, the routine weather messages the u-boats sent were encrypted on a 4 rotor machine using only 3 rotors! It seems weather messages used 3 rotors no matter what machine you were using! That allowed the Brits to crack the weather traffic and then use the weather 'crib' to crack the four rotor messages. Having three of the 4 rotor settings already in hand from the weather report just made cracking the u-boat messages that much easier!
Aside from the 3-rotor/4-rotor mess, Enigma's real flaw was that it never encoded a symbol as itself. Therefore an 'a' never came out as another 'a'. That is what really allowed the Brits to crack it. With that flaw in hand, it was then a mere matter of checking your cribs, thousands of cribs yes, but easy once you had even primitive computers.
Bill