He was so uncomfortable with slavery that forces under his command were notorious for re-enslaving every free African American they could get their hands on.
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Blood Red Cotton- A Confederate Timeline
- Thread starter Baldrick
- Start date
He was so uncomfortable with slavery that forces under his command were notorious for re-enslaving every free African American they could get their hands on.
Did Lee himself directly order his troops to round up and re-enslave every free black that was found? Or did they do it on their own accord? That makes a huge difference.
It was not a direct order but it happened as long as his army was in Virginia. I also find it hard to sympathize with a man who thought slavery more harmful to "the white man than to the black race". Oh and who thought that slavery's end should just be "left up to Providence".
While blacks people undeniably had it worse than whites, it’s possible he meant that the institution of slavery turned white people into hateful racists and that wouldn’t have been the case if not for slavery. I may be wrong but it’s just a possible interpretation.
https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...bobby-lee-and-the-peculiar-institution/61428/
Full quote and context are near the top of the article. Another choice section has Lee saying that the harsh discipline of slavery would be "necessary for their instruction as a race". I really don't care if Lee said, as he does in the letter I'm quoting, that he thought slavery was evil, his actions and his words betray a man unconcerned with the plight of the enslaved.
I don't know about this TL. It's going off the rails in a way that really overstretches my suspension of disbelief
Deleted member 109224
You can also look at these
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/
https://acwm.org/blog/myths-misunderstandings-lee-slaveholder
Here are a few choice excerpts.
The Confederate Civil War
Baldrick
Banned
Chapter 12- The Confederate Civil War
"General Lee- remember this. The secessionists in our heartland pose a mortal threat to this nation. You are fighting for the life of our republic in a way no different from 1862. Should you fail- we all fail."
- James Longstreet to Robert E. Lee on November 15, 1869, just before Lee was about to set off on his first campaign against the Republic of Dixieland
"Creating one nation based on the institution of slavery was clearly an idea which was doomed to failure. I somehow doubt that a second attempt will be more successful. What a maelstrom my failure has created!"
-Abraham Lincoln in a November 12, 1869 diary entry, shortly before his death.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come the middle of November 1869, the Confederacy was really looking death in the face. Virginia was legally gone, turned into a Yankee statelet which was pretty much illegitimate- and in fact, the CS government had not yet formally dropped its claims to the state. And now, its heartland was trying to throw it off. For Longstreet, it would've been easy to flee abroad and let someone else- Lee, perhaps- try cleaning up the mess. Yet, Longstreet was simply not that kind of man. He had made errors, gross errors, in his handling of the Virginia Claims Crisis, and had gotten the country into this situation. In fairness to him, however, he would try his utmost to solve the problem, not that that would rehabilitate him in the eyes of later Dixielander scholars. It is worth asking here whether or not diplomacy could have been used to prevent the Confederate Civil War, or at the very least get some of the states to side with the CSA. Certainly, the smooth Longstreet had turned this idea over in his head many times. Yet, as in 1861, only military force could carry the day. Simply put, the Confederacy had promised abolition to Britain and France, upon whom it was dependent for its survival. Undoing abolition now to reach a peaceful settlement would absolutely infuriate the British and French, who would surely abandon them to the plight of the Yankees. Thus, the Confederacy had no choice but to try to reconquer its heartland. Plus, the Anglo-French forces which had been used in Virginia would surely come in handy here, as would their navies.
The Republic of Dixieland was controlled, even moreso than the 1860s CSA, by the elite planter class. The capital was decided by a vote amongst the delegation, and became Atlanta, chosen for its distance from central government forces. James Averitt of North Carolina (1) whose family had owned a major plantation in that state for decades and who had used his considerable wits to write a number of works celebrating the Confederate way of life, was named First Provisional President. Averitt promised to hold a Constitutional Convention when the war had been won, but for now ruled with an uncomfortably heavy hand. In reality, Averitt's power was limited. Only one Confederate general had been willing to betray his eight-year-old country, and that was Braxton Bragg, also of North Carolina (2). While Averitt kept the planter class content and acted as the diplomatic side of things, Bragg would be in charge of keeping the Republic of Dixieland alive- no mean feat. Like many of the Confederate generals (himself included) who had betrayed their homeland in 1861, Bragg's conscience was rather uneasy about all this, but he believed that manumission was simply unacceptable under any terms, and that this was a repeat of 1861. Longstreet, in Bragg's eyes, in spite of his good record during the Dixie Revolution and previous respect the two had shared, was now another Abraham Lincoln.
The Republic of Dixieland, at its conception, possessed very approximately (3) 480,000 men. Most of this force consisted of CS Army forces who had defected with their state. The RoD's advantage here was the fact that its men were all, almost to a man, veterans of the Dixie Revolution. However, they also had zero outside recognition, meaning that trade for supplies was damn near impossible. Right from the get-go, this put the RoD at an extreme disadvantage and compelled them to take a predominantly defensive standpoint. However, the Confederate Army also had serious issues. With its heartland gone, the CSA could muster only around 200,000 men, even after calling up reservists. (4) Furthermore, a large number of these forces had to be kept on the northern border, so as to have at least something to stop the Yankees from invading. Thus, only around 185,000 men could be sent against the RoD, plus around 8,000 British and 8,000 French troops. Right from the get-go, then, the Confederates were outnumbered by over 2:1. However, they possessed the advantages of being able to trade with Britain and France, as well as to call upon those European nations for reinforcements should they need it. Plus, the CSA possessed almost all of the good generals.
The Confederate command was divided as follows: the Army of the Mississippi, based in Louisiana, Arkansas, Davis, and western Tennessee. Its goal would be to cross the great river and advance eastwards. Robert E. Lee took command of this force, which was around 90,000 strong. The second main Confederate unit was JEB Stuart's Army of the Carolinas, based in eastern Tennessee. Right from the start, it had been able to retain some of the Appalachian and northernmost parts of North Carolina, and had sizeable numbers of troops in those areas. Its objective would be, first and foremost, to march down the eastern seaboard, devastating the rebel heartland. Finally, the Anglo-French troops were mostly concentrated in those areas of northern North Carolina, right along the Virginia border, which they occupied, and were under the command of British General Charles Gordon- whose service in this campaign would forever earn him the moniker "Dixie"- and French General Louis Faidherbe.
The first battle of the war came on November 29, at Huntsville. There, 7,000 men under Stonewall Jackson's command faced off against a RoD division attempting to defend the town. For the Battle of Huntsville, Lee's aim was to pierce the enemy's right front and drive on to reach the Tennessee River to the town's right, before crossing the river and encircling the town. Lee possessed a slight numerical advantage over the defenders, but they fought with a surprising tenacity, shelling the north bank of the river in order to prevent a crossing. Thus, Jackson decided, it was time for something else. Thus began the so-called "Huntsville Bluff". While the majority of his force attempted to break through just southwest of Scottsboro, Jackson took his cavalry several kilometres to the west, where a light RoD force was defending the town of Athens. He then proceeded to have his cavalry ride around the town several times, so as to convince the defenders that his cavalry was two or three times larger than it actually was. Then, Jackson allowed the defenders of Athens- who were, naturally, scared out of their minds at the prospect of masses of hostile cavalry enveloping them- to plead for reinforcements. The message got through to Huntsville, and a regiment was sent to raise the "siege" of Athens. With the RoD forces in the eastern sector of the battle thus weakened, the forces near Scottsboro were able to break through and cross the Tennessee, all the while the Confederate cavalry to the west were retreating so as to be preserved in as best shape as possible. The Confederate forces wheeled around from the Tennessee and had Huntsville surrounded on three sides. The divisional commander panicked and surrendered to the Confederates, providing almost 5,000 prisoners. Out of that 5,000, perhaps 2,500 opted to join the CS Army instead of going into a prisoner-of-war camp. That fact demonstrated the lack of legitimacy which the RoD was held in amongst those who lived in it- to the small farmer, the CSA represented them and their interests perfectly fine, and they identified with it. They had fought one revolution, and yearned for peace. The Yankees had been fought in relatively far-off areas on their soil. This war was being fought on their homes and their towns, and that really did make a difference. For these men, siding with the CSA seemed like a way to bring the war to a close. With the capture of Huntsville, northern Alabama lay within the reach of the CS Army. Given the right resources, a drive on Atlanta might even be possible...
Elsewhere, however, the Confederate advance was slower. The capture of Vicksburg was only attained after a three-week long battle in which much of the Confederate Navy shelled the town to bits, and from its bridgehead, the Confederates were unable to do so much as think about advancing on Jackson- the city would be well-fortified and the Confederates lacked the manpower for such an operation. Mobile, too, held out, and became a centre for the paltry RoD Navy. Come New Years Day 1870, there was no end in sight for either side...
(1) IOTL, he was a preacher. ITTL, he chooses politics
(2) I chose Bragg mainly because he was the most prominent Confederate general from the RoD states who I could think of
(3) An extremely rough number, based off of some state-by-state data for 1861 which I found, plus some numbers at which I had to make estimates for.
(4) See above
"General Lee- remember this. The secessionists in our heartland pose a mortal threat to this nation. You are fighting for the life of our republic in a way no different from 1862. Should you fail- we all fail."
- James Longstreet to Robert E. Lee on November 15, 1869, just before Lee was about to set off on his first campaign against the Republic of Dixieland
"Creating one nation based on the institution of slavery was clearly an idea which was doomed to failure. I somehow doubt that a second attempt will be more successful. What a maelstrom my failure has created!"
-Abraham Lincoln in a November 12, 1869 diary entry, shortly before his death.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come the middle of November 1869, the Confederacy was really looking death in the face. Virginia was legally gone, turned into a Yankee statelet which was pretty much illegitimate- and in fact, the CS government had not yet formally dropped its claims to the state. And now, its heartland was trying to throw it off. For Longstreet, it would've been easy to flee abroad and let someone else- Lee, perhaps- try cleaning up the mess. Yet, Longstreet was simply not that kind of man. He had made errors, gross errors, in his handling of the Virginia Claims Crisis, and had gotten the country into this situation. In fairness to him, however, he would try his utmost to solve the problem, not that that would rehabilitate him in the eyes of later Dixielander scholars. It is worth asking here whether or not diplomacy could have been used to prevent the Confederate Civil War, or at the very least get some of the states to side with the CSA. Certainly, the smooth Longstreet had turned this idea over in his head many times. Yet, as in 1861, only military force could carry the day. Simply put, the Confederacy had promised abolition to Britain and France, upon whom it was dependent for its survival. Undoing abolition now to reach a peaceful settlement would absolutely infuriate the British and French, who would surely abandon them to the plight of the Yankees. Thus, the Confederacy had no choice but to try to reconquer its heartland. Plus, the Anglo-French forces which had been used in Virginia would surely come in handy here, as would their navies.
The Republic of Dixieland was controlled, even moreso than the 1860s CSA, by the elite planter class. The capital was decided by a vote amongst the delegation, and became Atlanta, chosen for its distance from central government forces. James Averitt of North Carolina (1) whose family had owned a major plantation in that state for decades and who had used his considerable wits to write a number of works celebrating the Confederate way of life, was named First Provisional President. Averitt promised to hold a Constitutional Convention when the war had been won, but for now ruled with an uncomfortably heavy hand. In reality, Averitt's power was limited. Only one Confederate general had been willing to betray his eight-year-old country, and that was Braxton Bragg, also of North Carolina (2). While Averitt kept the planter class content and acted as the diplomatic side of things, Bragg would be in charge of keeping the Republic of Dixieland alive- no mean feat. Like many of the Confederate generals (himself included) who had betrayed their homeland in 1861, Bragg's conscience was rather uneasy about all this, but he believed that manumission was simply unacceptable under any terms, and that this was a repeat of 1861. Longstreet, in Bragg's eyes, in spite of his good record during the Dixie Revolution and previous respect the two had shared, was now another Abraham Lincoln.
The Republic of Dixieland, at its conception, possessed very approximately (3) 480,000 men. Most of this force consisted of CS Army forces who had defected with their state. The RoD's advantage here was the fact that its men were all, almost to a man, veterans of the Dixie Revolution. However, they also had zero outside recognition, meaning that trade for supplies was damn near impossible. Right from the get-go, this put the RoD at an extreme disadvantage and compelled them to take a predominantly defensive standpoint. However, the Confederate Army also had serious issues. With its heartland gone, the CSA could muster only around 200,000 men, even after calling up reservists. (4) Furthermore, a large number of these forces had to be kept on the northern border, so as to have at least something to stop the Yankees from invading. Thus, only around 185,000 men could be sent against the RoD, plus around 8,000 British and 8,000 French troops. Right from the get-go, then, the Confederates were outnumbered by over 2:1. However, they possessed the advantages of being able to trade with Britain and France, as well as to call upon those European nations for reinforcements should they need it. Plus, the CSA possessed almost all of the good generals.
The Confederate command was divided as follows: the Army of the Mississippi, based in Louisiana, Arkansas, Davis, and western Tennessee. Its goal would be to cross the great river and advance eastwards. Robert E. Lee took command of this force, which was around 90,000 strong. The second main Confederate unit was JEB Stuart's Army of the Carolinas, based in eastern Tennessee. Right from the start, it had been able to retain some of the Appalachian and northernmost parts of North Carolina, and had sizeable numbers of troops in those areas. Its objective would be, first and foremost, to march down the eastern seaboard, devastating the rebel heartland. Finally, the Anglo-French troops were mostly concentrated in those areas of northern North Carolina, right along the Virginia border, which they occupied, and were under the command of British General Charles Gordon- whose service in this campaign would forever earn him the moniker "Dixie"- and French General Louis Faidherbe.
The first battle of the war came on November 29, at Huntsville. There, 7,000 men under Stonewall Jackson's command faced off against a RoD division attempting to defend the town. For the Battle of Huntsville, Lee's aim was to pierce the enemy's right front and drive on to reach the Tennessee River to the town's right, before crossing the river and encircling the town. Lee possessed a slight numerical advantage over the defenders, but they fought with a surprising tenacity, shelling the north bank of the river in order to prevent a crossing. Thus, Jackson decided, it was time for something else. Thus began the so-called "Huntsville Bluff". While the majority of his force attempted to break through just southwest of Scottsboro, Jackson took his cavalry several kilometres to the west, where a light RoD force was defending the town of Athens. He then proceeded to have his cavalry ride around the town several times, so as to convince the defenders that his cavalry was two or three times larger than it actually was. Then, Jackson allowed the defenders of Athens- who were, naturally, scared out of their minds at the prospect of masses of hostile cavalry enveloping them- to plead for reinforcements. The message got through to Huntsville, and a regiment was sent to raise the "siege" of Athens. With the RoD forces in the eastern sector of the battle thus weakened, the forces near Scottsboro were able to break through and cross the Tennessee, all the while the Confederate cavalry to the west were retreating so as to be preserved in as best shape as possible. The Confederate forces wheeled around from the Tennessee and had Huntsville surrounded on three sides. The divisional commander panicked and surrendered to the Confederates, providing almost 5,000 prisoners. Out of that 5,000, perhaps 2,500 opted to join the CS Army instead of going into a prisoner-of-war camp. That fact demonstrated the lack of legitimacy which the RoD was held in amongst those who lived in it- to the small farmer, the CSA represented them and their interests perfectly fine, and they identified with it. They had fought one revolution, and yearned for peace. The Yankees had been fought in relatively far-off areas on their soil. This war was being fought on their homes and their towns, and that really did make a difference. For these men, siding with the CSA seemed like a way to bring the war to a close. With the capture of Huntsville, northern Alabama lay within the reach of the CS Army. Given the right resources, a drive on Atlanta might even be possible...
Elsewhere, however, the Confederate advance was slower. The capture of Vicksburg was only attained after a three-week long battle in which much of the Confederate Navy shelled the town to bits, and from its bridgehead, the Confederates were unable to do so much as think about advancing on Jackson- the city would be well-fortified and the Confederates lacked the manpower for such an operation. Mobile, too, held out, and became a centre for the paltry RoD Navy. Come New Years Day 1870, there was no end in sight for either side...
(1) IOTL, he was a preacher. ITTL, he chooses politics
(2) I chose Bragg mainly because he was the most prominent Confederate general from the RoD states who I could think of
(3) An extremely rough number, based off of some state-by-state data for 1861 which I found, plus some numbers at which I had to make estimates for.
(4) See above
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None of this warrants Lee organizing a coup and executing Longstreet. That is completely out of character. This is what is in question. Not his views on slavery.
Why the change in naming scheme? I would have thought they would have stuck with naming their armies after states or geographical areas.
I just finished catching up with this TL and I must excellent job! I hope for an update soon.